[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Art of the Referral podcast where we explore the nuances of mental health referrals to better serve our patients and our communities. I'm your host, Anna O'Brien, a practicing licensed professional counselor and co founder of Be well Private Practice Communities and theravera Care Connection Technologies. I am passionate about creating a stronger professional community that works together to reduce provider burnout, increase continuity of care, and ultimately improve the lives of people living with mental health challenges. Each week we dive into a different specialty or supportive tool, bringing you expert interviews, practical advice and inspiring stories to help you master the art and ethics of referrals. Join us as we navigate the complexities of patient care, enhance our professional skills and build a more connected health conscious community. Let's get started.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Hello and welcome back to this episode of Art of the Referral. It is titled Death Do We Refer Therapist, Professional Wills and a Modern Solution with Dr. Robin Miller, PhD. We're so glad to have you, Robin.
[00:01:20] Speaker C: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So, Robin, I understand you're a licensed clinical psychologist and you have a private practice in Bethesda, Maryland, and you've founded theraclosure, which is the first therapist professional executor service in nearly 25 years of clinical experience. Robin has provided training, supervision, coverage and professional will and practice executor consultation and services. And she's written on this topic so you can find out more about
[email protected] and email
[email protected] and we're so honored to have you here talking to us about this important topic today.
[00:02:05] Speaker C: Thank you so much. I'm working really hard to try to spread the word. I know this is an issue that people know in the back of their minds is important to think about, but we're all only human. And the list of our priorities, thinking about and spending resources on our own, more mortality is, you know, at the bottom of the list. So I appreciate the opportunity to talk about the real world impact of these issues so that therapists can really devote the attention and time.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: That is absolutely, I mean, you're, you're right. It's one of those things we don't think about very often. And then every time I hear, read about it or it comes up in a topic with colleagues, it's kind of like, whoa, this is a really important thing to consider and what is my plan? And I think a lot of us, you know, put it off or, or you know, have a little bit of an idea of what their plan Might be, but it's wonderful to talk to you and learn more about also like how you got interested in this and, and really how you became such an expert in this area.
[00:03:07] Speaker C: Sure. Well, I had the misfortune in a sense of gaining experience as a practice executor through a couple of tragedies that occurred to close colleagues and friends. So the first time I stood up to take care of the practice of a colleague, it was when my closest psychologist, friend and supervision partner of 17 years called me out of the blue and said, I'm in the hospital and I have a terminal illness and I don't have long and I need you to take over. And you know, it's obviously terrible on so very many levels of loss and grief and tragedy for her.
My experience of, you know, preparing to lose my friend, but focusing on the practical and professional consequences of that, it meant from that first moment was the point person for all of her patients and her full time practice and figuring out what to do from there. That was my first and really most impactful experience. And I can say more about the details and story of that. It's really eye opening to me and very emotional and heart wrenching. And did my best to take care of her patients and for my, you know, to take care of my friend as she was going through this awful end of life experience to know that, you know, there was kind of some peace of mind in terms of entrusting her practice to my care, but really very difficult. And then second, a couple years later I stepped in for another colleague who had a more sudden incapacitation and no warning at all and got a call that she was medically compromised and unable to take care of her practice and so stepped in in that case kind of blindly, you know, needing to take care of her caseload as well and not knowing what the prognosis was or how long it to be that these patients needed coverage. And thankfully she did recover and six months later was able to go back to her practice. But all of the same, you know, managing patient immediate needs and holding them through the uncertainty as they struggled with with this loss and helping them get connected with other people in the meantime and all of those. So the two experiences together led me to write some papers, then I started doing some trainings for clinicians and then the reactions that I got from clinicians really led me to develop theraclosure as a solution to how hard it is for us understandably to really understand what is required not only as the therapist making the plan to really think it through what we need to provide access and information and what we want and to clearly articulate that. But what we're asking of another to do for us and to be sure that they understand what it is they're agreeing to do and to be sure that there is a plan in place for realistic set of expectations on what another private practitioner who has their own full time practice, possibly as I did, and their own family and their own personal. How they're realistically going to step in in a moment of crisis and all of a sudden take responsibility for someone else's entire practice. It's a lot. And so like I was saying, the. The reactions I get from people are like, whoa, I never thought about that, or this is so overwhelming, or I don't know who to ask. And this is so stressful. And it led me to believe that as a field, we kind of have a problem where our ethics codes demand that we think about this. And of course, it makes sense clinically to want to take care of our patients, even in our absence, to have a plan for their care, but it's really hard to do. And so theraclosure was created as a way to try and offer a much easier solution to therapists who want to do the right thing, but are so overwhelmed by how to do that that they often get stuck at that.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: So, Robyn, can you share a little bit about why a will and how it relates to our clinical duties and ethics and whatnot?
[00:07:47] Speaker C: Sure. So across disciplines, I'm a psychologist, but in the marriage and family therapist, in the licensed professional counselors and social work ethics codes, all of them address something about the duty of the therapist not to abandon, and in particular, to plan for an untimely departure of the therapist's departure and to plan for the well being of the patients regarding continuity of care and confidentiality of their medical records. So in some, it's outlined a little more specifically than in others, but across the board, we all have the same duty. And so how do you do that? It's hard. It's really hard to do. So professional will is not your last will and testament. It doesn't speak to your personal assets or wishes. It is entirely related to your practice, both the clinical, especially the clinical, and also you can include some of the business elements of your practice as well, if you wish. But really the intent is to create a guideline initially for your personal representative, because, let's say something happened to me tomorrow. My husband has no idea, you know, how, how my practice works or how to interface with clients. Or what the ethical responsibilities are regarding their records. But he would be the person who, you know, all, all of my assets, including my practice, fall to. And that's going to be true for, for everybody. So the will is for your personal representative and it's a way of saying to them, hey, if something happens to me, what I want you to do is to connect with this colleague that I've named who will know what to do for my practice so that you'll be spared and so my practice will be handled correctly. And here is the list of my wishes. And you document everything that you want to have happen. Like how do you want your patients to be notified that something happened to you? What kinds of referrals do you think would be best? And are there particular people in your community or that you would want them to be referred to if they were able to take patients? And we can come back to this. The art of the referral and the circumstances is pretty challenging. But it documents then like who should take your medical records and what should be done with them. And how about those business aspects of your practice, like notifying past patients that the custody of their medical records has been and transferred to someone else's care. In some states that's an explicit requirement, like in Maryland, where I live. Other states don't have that as an explicit requirement. Or they might have a, you have to put a notification in the newspaper for a two week period, kind of letting people, the public know that, you know, the medical records of Robin Miller's practice have been delivered to Anna O'Brien and so past patients have been. Dr. Miller can go to Dr. O'Brien or Ann O'Brien for those records, something like that. So people know if they are looking and needing that medical information, where to find it. And then there are other things that could be included in the professional will, like notify my malpractice insurance company of my death, close down my business accounts, close down my website or put on my website and my phone that my practice is closed and they should reach out to X provider, all the details.
And part of that is choosing who that personal, that practice executor is going to be. So one of the most important things to think through is who do you trust to count on in this situation and realistically what are they able to promise that they will do and will they be available to do that even with the very, very best intentions? Your colleague who you've appointed might be on a trip or dealing with their own crisis. Who is really going to be able to Step in and take on this huge responsibility in the moment of crisis because they're, I guess, breaking it down. The different steps to consider. The most important and most urgent thing that has to happen is your upcoming patients with appointments scheduled for tomorrow and the next day and next week. They need to be notified so that they aren't experiencing a traumatic termination, banging on your door or sitting on a zoom waiting, wondering where are you leaving messages and you're not returning. And they are full of feelings of panic, anxiety, abandonment, loss.
Where is the person I count on? So the most important thing is who's going to find out which patients are scheduled, how to get in touch with them and what are they going to communicate to them. And so that that needs to happen really quickly and the other things can take a little bit longer imagining.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: It sounds like there are just so many unknown unknowns that come up sometimes. Like, oh, I didn't even consider that there would be this consideration. I know recently I had a colleague, a friend who had an unexpected diagnosis that required kind of immediate surgery. And you know, fortunately it wasn't a end of life situation, but very similar where, you know, I found myself in a position of taking on the role of communicating what I needed to communicate to her clients and letting them know the plan. And I was grateful that I could still reach out if necessary, you know, when unclear on certain questions to her. But I can't imagine how stressful that must be to find yourself in that position without much of a roadmap and wanting to do right by everyone. So thank you for bringing up these questions so we can begin to think about them more.
Why do you think though that more therapists don't make wells if it's, you know, clearly such an important thing to consider as we, at any stage in our practice?
[00:14:26] Speaker C: Well, I think first of all, we are only human, just like anybody else. It's a hard thing to imagine. And so many of us live in, you know, a healthy denial where we don't think much about what happens if I die. And most of us think I'm young and I'm healthy and I don't need to worry about this right now. And maybe when I'm older or maybe later in my career and sadly, the unexpected can happen at any point. And so the, the situations that I found myself taking care of were for seemingly healthy women in their who you would not have imagined this, this was, you know, around the corner. So I do want to communicate. It's, it's part of good practice. It's part of practice management that I think needs to be in place from the moment any of us kind of put out a shingle. It's like getting malpractice insurance. It's like, you know, organizing your electronic health record system so that, you know, you are compliant and fulfilling best practices for your patient's care. And I know, you know, therapists, we go through so much training and we're so invested in continuing to do our best for our patients. And this is one blind spot that I think really we need to have the strength and the courage to face. Because, you know, I, I know in, in my training and my style of practice and I imagine for, for many of your listeners too, you know, we pride ourselves on going deep in our own emotional capacity to explore our countertransference, you know, to really look at our negative affect when we're angry or jealous or disgusted. And we're really, you know, we own that and in supervision and acknowledge and how can we use that in our best ways to inform our clinical interventions and to understand our patients when we are honest with ourselves about what we're feeling? All of these things we take such pride in being able to do, but mortality is still a no go. Even as therapists, even we're kind of like, no, I'm not going to think about that. I'll think about anything else you want me to think about that's really hard, but not that. So we need to, we need to do better for our patients. And also then the impact that not dealing with this places not only on our patients, but then on our colleagues and especially on our families who then are left with this big mess. To deal with our practices at the same time that they are, you know, going through a tragedy and grieving and to protect them from that is really.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: Important actually to that point. Do you have people use this service when perhaps they're ambivalent or it's unknown if they're going to be able to return? Like, you know, we mentioned it's professional will, not a living will. So in the sense that it doesn't necessarily mean that someone is passing away, it could be that they became incapacitated or perhaps they're dealing like with a extremely sick child or some, some situation where they have a full caseload and it's just unmanageable to manage their current life stressors that they've had to take on along with getting to everyone and providing those resources.
Do you find that people use this service in ways like that as well? Sometimes.
[00:17:54] Speaker C: So that's a tricky One, I think all of us have stressful times where we would really like to say, I can't deal with my practice right now. I need someone else to do that. And unfortunately, you know, we. We don't take that on. Our responsibilities are triggered by incapacitation primarily most, you know, for first and foremost by cognitive incapacitation.
So that if you are dealing with something, whether it is physical, either because you died or because you are unconscious or because you have, as you said, you're dealing with a tremendous tragedy like the loss of a child or something that has made you so that you are unable to bring your competent therapist self to your interactions with your clients in person or even in, you know, contacting them to provide referrals. If you are unable to do that, then we would step in to do that. So if you have a broken leg or if you're on maternity leave, or even if you know you have experienced a loss and you really wish you could have some time off and want to take two weeks off, it's still your job as a therapist to secure your own coverage and to ask your friends to be that resource for a temporary leave of absence. But if something occurs where you are unable to do that yourself, that's when we would step in as though you are, you know, no longer capable of taking care.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And I think, though it works on a nice spectrum. I was just imagining the exercise of going through that and really thinking about what the care treatment plan would be for referrals for each client and how you would want to handle it and how you would want to communicate. Those suggestions would be so important regardless of whether you have the capacity to do it yourself. Certainly sometimes we might have a major stressor in our lives where we just realize, like, I'm going to have to take an extended break and I need to be able to offer referrals for those folks who don't want to wait for me. But in that moment when you're dealing with that, trying to come up with all these referrals and options seems like a lot to manage. So even the act of kind of preparing this well seems like it would be so important because even if you're able to implement the steps yourself, just having it takes away such a burden from the spectrum of things, of unknowns that can happen.
[00:20:40] Speaker C: Absolutely. That's such a good point. And you know, as I walk people through this consultation and really thinking through all the steps that that happen, I'm getting that kind of feedback like, wow, this is so helpful to even think about, you know, my practice and my patients needs and the logistics of it. In as you're saying, sort of a different kind of scenario where you could implement the plan on your own, but it's already laid out for you.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Absolutely, yeah. So the traditional model versus you know, a little bit more of some of the services that you're offering. Can you describe that? Like what you see people kind of traditionally doing in the steps and what resources are currently out there for the more kind of traditional method versus a bit more of a comprehensive approach which you're offering?
[00:21:33] Speaker C: Sure.
So when I call the traditional model is really just kind of what has happened over time since, let's say it's been maybe 20, 25 years or so since the professional organizations have started to recommend this and to create templates. And so since they've recommended that practitioners make this plan for the future, therapists generally look online, find a template that an organization has posted or someone else and adapt that to their own practice and then ask a colleague, hey, would you do this for me? I'll do it for you. And informally kind of make a, make a deal and without really understanding what it's about. And I think our training, risk management training communicates really that this is an administrative matter that you should, you should do to cross your, you know, to check that box that you've done it. But it doesn't really help people understand what is entailed. So the traditional model is you ask a friend, they say, okay, sure, they put you down, you put them down. People don't realize the first problem right there is if something happens to one of you, the other doesn't have coverage anymore. It's only going to work for one person, but once they're incapacitated, the other is on their own. So this partnership arrangement is, is a falsehood.
Second, the normity of the obligation is really not typically clear to either party.
So that people don't know what they're agreeing to. They think it'll take a couple hours. And you know, sure, who wouldn't do a couple hours worth for a friend in a terrible crisis? And let me say I was honored to do what I did for my friends, but I know that they did not intend or understand kind of the magnitude of, of the burden that, that, you know, was handed down to me. They certainly wouldn't have wanted or intended that. And there were positives in that. I felt like at a tragic time I, I was doing something which helped when you're otherwise maybe feeling so passive and, and helpless. So there were these benefits. But the other drawbacks are sometimes practices promise in these arrangements that my estate will compensate the practice executor for their time per my hourly rate.
In those circumstances, it's important to realize that what you might think is a couple hours worth of work and you're going to pay your colleague, you know, your hourly rate for a few hours is really many, many, many hours worth of work. So my rule of thumb is if someone has a practice where they see 20 patients a week, it's probably going to take at least 40 hours of work to help those people find referrals, to be in contact with them, to manage all of the administrative aspects of that practice. So your estate is going to get a bill, 40 hours at your colleagues hourly rate. So that's a huge bill. It could be $10,000 depending on obviously where you live and the market and the going rate. So that is a major problem that people don't think through in these arrangements.
Another problem is how, you know, where I live, it's really hard to find referrals for one person. If a friend asks me, hey, can you help me find someone to see for my teenage daughter or my, you know, or myself, it's really hard to find someone who has openings. But all of a sudden here you are handed a whole caseload where you need to find 20 referrals right now, 40 referrals, depending how big the practice is. And that doesn't take into consideration are they right gender in the right location, do they take the right insurance? Are they, you know, proficient in the issues at hand? It is really hard. And in my experience, experience, I reached out to colleagues far and wide saying I have this kind of patient that I really need a referral for. And the response I got most of the time from people is, wow, I wish I could help, but I'm full. So sorry. Even, you know, people who I think felt so badly for me being in the position of trying to find, you know, people have their own stuff going on, how do you take the time to locate. And even when people, the therapist who's made the will themselves might leave a list of friends or colleagues, but even they are only going to be able to take at most one or two of the patients. And then you're, you're really looking for people who can do that. And so it's a lot of work and like we said, to do that for someone you're close to, when you are greeting yourself, you know, these aren't phone calls. You can make in between your own clients when you have 10 minutes to call up some stranger and say, hey, I'm just calling to tell you your therapist died. That's not how it works. You're setting aside tremendous amounts of time. So for me, that was in the evenings after I saw my own patients to reach out and very, very thoughtfully say to people. I am the covering psychologist for X Practice and I am calling because I have some difficult news to share with you. And Dr. X really wishes she was able to tell you this news herself, but she is not able. You know, are you in a private place where you can speak freely for a few minutes? Dr. X has been diagnosed with and is unable to see her patients anymore. And then pausing and listening to those reactions, mostly, you know, shock and dismay and tears and overwhelm and being really responsive, not taking them on as their, you know, as though I'm their therapist, but in a human way, really devoting time and care and it takes a long. And then I would hang up from these calls and I would cry myself because I felt just the same as the patients that I was calling because I had lost my closest friend. And to do that over and over and over was gut wrenching. And also then, you know, I wasn't sadly able to spend the time I wished I could have with my friend in her final days because I was spending that time trying to take care of her practice, which was obviously so important to her. And I'm glad I could do that.
But anyway, that's, that's the long winded version of hard it is to ask a colleague to do this.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: I think it's so important too to illustrate that. Yeah, just so important to illustrate the impact. And certainly you want that person to feel taken care of in that moment, you know, on both sides, your colleague and also the folks that they, they care for. Because that is such a huge loss when you've, you've entrusted your, your emotional life and your story with someone and to have them depart is a big deal, but knowing that they thought about you and are thinking about you even in their departure in terms of the plan and really setting someone up with excellent referrals is so important. And certainly if you have a caseload of 20 or 30 clients and you specialize, then you, a lot of the referral types may overlap and that's hard to find a specialist who has, you know, spot for one client, sometimes much less 20 or 30. So it really, I could see how it would be a lot of work and really important, you know, One of the things that we were connecting around to have a good sense of your colleagues in the area that have space and would be a good fit whom you can refer to. So really fascinating stuff. And you know, I, I wanted to ask a little bit in terms of like, what are the things that people can kind of do on their own? I know you have some free resources available regarding will and then some other things that maybe are a little bit tricky to do on your own that you are able to step in and support with your work at their closure.
[00:30:21] Speaker C: So professional wills, as this traditional model writes them, they're not contracts, they're not really legal documents. They're your wish. They're your wish that someone would step in and do this. And you've put down the person that you, you hope is going to do it. And certainly, hopefully you've asked them and they've agreed, but they don't have to do anything. And maybe they won't be available to do what even they may have agreed to do. So it's important to know you can find a template on the Internet. And I have provided one that I think is as comprehensive as possible in a generic way that's pulled in all the different pieces of what people should think about. And you can use that, and you can talk to a colleague and name them. However, it is not a legal document unless both people sign it. If both people sign it, then it's a contract. And then it would be enforceable in the sense that the person has an obligation to do what they are agreeing to do for you, but that creates liability for them that they may or may not want to take on. And, and so you can consult an attorney to review to make sure what you've set out in that will is legally appropriate. Makes sense. Sense is consistent with your state laws as well as with your personal will and testament. However, you will likely pay between $1,500 and $3,000 for an attorney to help you make a will. And then that's all you have. You have the will, you have this piece of paper that you can waive, but you have no services provided with the attorney's help in making that will. Fair Closure attempts to address all of these problems. I have come to believe that it is not in anybody's best interest for a close friend or colleague to be the point person here, to be the practice executive. It's just too gut wrenching. And then you don't have the mental capacity really to make decisions in the best interests of the patients. Of course, I Did the best I could, and I think I did a pretty good job, but obviously.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: So you're processing your own stuff.
[00:32:57] Speaker C: Clear head. Yes. Might have handled it differently. So I've come to believe that if you want to do this yourself, my recommendation is that it's not one person, that it would be a group of colleagues, none of whom you are especially close to, but a group that you could trust that will come together to together divide the responsibilities of this task and to create a will where they sign it, and everybody as part of a group signs that together. There are some pitfalls in that. It's a diffusion of responsibility. And so it may be that any one person doesn't have the full picture, that people might fall through the cracks, that someone thinks someone else is handling something.
There can be problems with that, but it's a better plan than choosing one person, and especially one person that you're close to. Fair Closure is my attempt to again solve all these problems. So, of course you want a clinician to do this. A lawyer might tell you it's an administrative job. It could be someone who's not a clinician. Most of our ethics code said that it needs to be a qualified individual. And what that means might vary. But my opinion in dealing with these bereft people in crisis is that it should be a clinician who can speak with them appropriately and also understands the rules and regulations regarding confidentiality and is able to those referrals and all of those things. So to be. To name a colleague a clinician, you also want to feel. I understand. You want to feel, as that therapist, that someone who kind of understands what you're about as a therapist and is going to care about your patients and your practice, you want to. You want to trust that. But that doesn't have to be your best friend, because again, not only is it a huge burden for your best friend who will be grieving, but also your patients don't know that that's your best friend. You think it's going to be better somehow if someone who really knows you intimately makes those calls, but it's not really in their patient's best interest. So what their closure tries to do is we want to get to know you, your practice, what kind of patients you see, what your style is, how you relate to them. We really want to know so that we can provide the services as a good friend would want to provide for you, but without that emotional entanglement of being overwhelmed by that personal relationship and the loss of that at the time.
So we get to know you. We put in a plan that makes sense with your input on how we would get access to your records, whether that's through an EHR or through, if you have paper records, what our plan would be to get that information and patient contact information and your schedule. We gather a whole bunch of details about how we are going to fulfill exactly your instructions on referrals, on how to notify on custody of the records and so forth. We create a professional will that names their closure as the practice executor. And we have clinicians, only clinicians, who will be the ones who would step up in this case to reach out to the patients and sign a will, and you review it and make sure. And then we are on retainer for you in case of an incident, an incapacitation or death. And then we will, if called into service, perform all of those services with no additional cost to your practice. So the other benefit, even though it's signing up for a yearly subscription fee to have us on retainer for you, in the end, it's a controlled cost where you know per year what you're going to be spending. And you know that your estate is never going to be saddled a huge unexpected bill. There will be no further costs.
[00:37:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's one of the things that really stood out to me as you were talking. You know, I think we do this work because we care and it, you know, certainly if you're in private, if you're private in private practice, you may be able to kind of have, you know, an income that supports your lifestyle. A lot of us struggle with that even in this field. You know, it's. It's hard with reimbursement rate sometimes. You know, it certainly, it's challenging to pick things to spend money for, you know, in terms of, do I really need this in my practice? One of the things that stood out to me as you were talking is that it's an expense no matter what.
[00:37:58] Speaker C: Right.
[00:37:58] Speaker B: If you're practicing up until the end of your life and we don't really have control over, you know, when the end of our lives are, it is a risk that it is an expense either way. And so to know and plan for something as opposed to. Yeah, I was just doing the math in my head. Like, if you charge $150 a session, if you don't have a plan in place and someone is, you know, spending, even if you have 10 clients, you know, that can be $3,000 off of your estate and much more the higher you go up. So that that really made a lot of sense to me as you were talking.
[00:38:31] Speaker C: Sorry. Let me add one other thing, which is the potential for liability, not only the unexpected cost for your executor, but if this isn't handled properly, your estate is left open to lawsuit around confidentiality. Sometimes I hear from people, I have 40 boxes of patient records going back, you know, 25 years in my basement. And what do I do with that? You know, if you don't have a will in place and your family comes in with the very best of intentions, but they don't understand the rules around confidentiality, they can put that on the curb. And then, you know, you can be sued for breach of confidentiality, for mishandling of medical records. There's so many different circumstances that could happen.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Certainly not the things we want as a legacy to, like, a really excellent career. Right. And, you know, even as you said that, I remember reading some emails from an online therapy platform where they just emailed a client and said, you know, we're sorry to inform you that your therapist has passed away.
And just like the horror I remember feeling reading that, it made me think a lot. I wanted to do a little plug for this that, like, if you are not in private practice and are instead working for a company, it really, after talking to you, it made me want to, like, offer the advice to everyone that you're. One of your interview back to them questions as you're getting hired is how do you plan for, you know, in the event of an untimely death or, you know, having to leave practice? How do you take care of your providers and the. And the clients that they see? Because that seems like it could tell you a lot about a culture of a company.
[00:40:19] Speaker C: Yeah, excellent, excellent point. Excellent idea. Because nobody wants your patient that you've worked with for a long time who really trusts you to get a corporate email. You know, we make a point of all these communications with current patients are only by phone, as long as we can get in touch with someone after repeated tries. And we are going to follow up and we are going to have multiple lengthy conversations with them because, of course, some people are going to say, oh, my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed. I don't want to talk about referrals right now. I'm sorry, you know, and they're going to say, of course, I understand. Is it okay if I call you back next week? And. And, you know, you want to really be a transitional object kind of saying in the meantime while you're dealing with this traumatic loss, I. I'M I'm going to shepherd you through. And like you had mentioned earlier, which is such an important point that I want to reiterate, it communicates my patient. My. My therapist really cared about me. My therapist put this plan in place and that's part of our goal in contacting patients is to communicate. You know, your therapist really thought deeply about the. Absolutely.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: That gave me chills when you said it. Yeah, I mean that's so.
[00:41:37] Speaker C: That's like. Right.
[00:41:37] Speaker B: We're that object for people to really feel seen and heard and even in our absence that, that we like live on in their, in their mind as, as that. That symbol. Thank you so much for your time, Robyn. This is so important. And you know, I'm going to be linking to theraclosure in the notes. You know, you mentioned that you have some free resources as well as information about the services you offer there and also a plug for consult list here. It's a free service to join and our goal is to really help arm you with a tool that can connect you when you need to make clinical referrals to providers within your community. You get to pick who you refer to and learn more about their services and cultivate a list. And we're hoping that this can be really supportive also to people when they're trying to make referrals in the event that they become incapacitated. So please feel free to utilize again. Free. No catches. Free for all licensed providers to sign up and enjoy. And we're, we're excited to, you know, hopefully collaborate with you in the future, Robin, because the work you're doing is so important and I'm so fortunate that I ran across you through LinkedIn and got to know you better.
[00:42:49] Speaker C: Well, thank you so much. And I am excited as well to know about Contactless because we are always looking for really good networks of therapists in all, all locations who are vetted and reachable and we're able to know their practice interests and availability. So, so we are so grateful to you as well. And thank you so much for having me.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. All right, well, thanks again, Robin. And again, if you need to find any more about Robin's services and her company, Theraclosure, you can go to theraclosure.com and Robin, your email address is robin with a yeraclosure.com is that correct?
[00:43:30] Speaker C: That's absolutely right. And we do offer a free 20 minute informational meeting to help folks determine if we can be of help. Wonderful.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: Thanks, Robin. Have a wonderful day.
[00:43:43] Speaker C: Thank you. You too.
[00:43:46] Speaker A: Thank you for Tuning in to the Art of the Referral Podcast. We hope you found today's episode insightful and valuable. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review to help us reach more providers and clinicians like you. Follow us on social media and visit our website for additional resources and updates on upcoming episodes. Until next time, keep mastering the art of Referrals and making a difference in patient care.
[00:44:11] Speaker C: Goodbye.
