Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome back to Art of the Referral. I'm here today with Elizabeth Earnshaw, a licensed family and marriage therapist, a certified Gottman Therapist, AAMFT approved supervisor, and founder of A Better Life Therapy. To add to that, she's also well known for her popular Instagram account, LizListens, and is the author of I Want this to Work and Till Stress Do Us Part, how to Heal the Number One Issues of Our Relationships that is being released or Sorry, which was released September 10th of this year, 2024. She's been featured in the New York Times, USA Today, the Washington Post, and more. She lives between Philadelphia and New Orleans with her husband and children. And to learn more about her, you can Visit her website, ElizAbethearnsh.
Welcome. I might call you Liz, if that's okay.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. I'm excited today to chat with you about the idea of referrals within the marriage and couples counseling space. This podcast, you know, talks a lot about referrals, and this is one that comes up frequently, whether we're working with individuals or children or families. Right. Sometimes things that are happening within a relationship that is impacting the mental health individually of folks or in a system as a whole. So it's exciting to be here and chat with you.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So can you share with us just to start a little bit about kind of the differences between individual counseling and couples counseling?
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that one of the major differences with couples counseling is that you're getting automatic feedback about each person in the relationship. So sometimes you learn more about the individuals because of that. And you are constantly kind of in this, like, dynamic with multiple people. So with individual counseling, it's you and then one other person in the room, and you're kind of, I think, moving forward that you're having to kind of work to move forward that dynamic energy in the room. And when you're with couples, you have this. These two people, and you're like the third party there, and they're moving a lot of that energy. And your role is to kind of sit back and help them to navigate whatever they're navigating together and to also assess them by looking at each other's reactions to each other and the narratives that they share. So I think that kind of that energy and the way that it's navigated is very different in couples therapy.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really interesting. And one thing I've noticed working as an individual counselor is sometimes the impact of relationships in the system and how it impacts individual work.
Why is it important to look at couples counseling as separate from individual in the sense of the training involved and the approach? Because I do sometimes see therapists who've done individual work start to work with couples, and I imagine that it's very different from how you describe it. Can you speak to that a little bit?
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it's different, and it's a very specific modality where it's important to have the training. And there's a few reasons for that. I mean, number one is that you are working with more than one person in the room. And so you have to know how to shift out of individual therapy, which is like you and one other person and that person sharing information with you, and you're assessing, and then you're kind of questioning them directly. And again, that energy is between you and that person. You have to be able to move into a system which means that you're not just working with one person and then the other. And I think when people aren't necessarily trained in couples therapy, what they'll do is individual therapy, but with two people in the room. And so they might be doing a lot of talking back and forth with partner A, and then they go to partner B, and they talk back and forth. But there's not really a lot of helping that couple change their dynamic. I think that another piece that's really important in couples therapy is that you have to know how to treat a relationship. You don't necessarily have to know how to treat every single thing that's going to be coming in with the individuals. And so you have to be good at knowing when you have to refer them, I think, in a different way. And so a lot of people, when they first start with couples counseling, it can feel a little bit overwhelming to them because you might have a couple, and one might have a history of, let's say, substance use, and one might have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. And as the couples therapist, you might say, I don't have any experience with bipolar disorder. I'm not a specialist in that. But it's a little bit different with couples therapy, where you would never see any couples if you felt like you had to be a specialist with every single individual issue that comes in the room. What you need to be able to do is you need to be able to recognize is this individual and the struggle that they're facing. Do they need extra support outside of me? So I don't need to treat bipolar disorder. I need to probably know enough about it that I can recognize how it's influencing the relationship. But even more so, I need to be able to recommend that this person gets extra support, and then I need to be willing to collaborate with whoever they're working with for their specific set of individual challenges.
And then, you know, beyond that, there's just so many things that couples therapists know and they can identify in terms of patterns and dynamics and what is healthy in a relationship versus what's not, and how important it is to be able to be comfortable in the midst of discomfort in a different way. You're in the middle of conflict often, and you have to be able to have that ability to step in and to say, I'm here, but we need to stop this conflict. And all of that is kind of an art form that you learn.
[ It sounds like such different work. And it, you know, the risk, it sounds like, of being an individual therapist and trained in that way of approaching therapy is that you end up treating two individuals in the room instead of the relationship. And that in some ways, I could imagine it could exacerbate stressors because you're starting to play a role of referee where, you know, they're not opponents against each other. The goal is to communicate and strengthen the team together.
So that's really interesting. And what I also hear you saying is there's a lot of back and forth referrals. Right. Like a lot of times do you find that you are seeing a couple, they come in primarily for work as a couple. And then as the. As the treatment goes on, it becomes clear that a referral is needed for someone to work on their own stuff simultaneously.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think that in most cases, there ends up being something like that, whether they're already both seeing somebody and so I'm collaborating with whoever they're seeing, or we recognize that there is extra support needed for either person.
Yeah, I would say like 95% of my cases there, of course, there are people that come in and they really just want to talk about a transition or something like that. But most cases, they do have a need for figuring out what's going on individually, especially because couples therapy tends to uncover trauma or other mental health concerns that have never been named before. Because often when we're talking about ourselves or trying to understand ourselves. We're doing that through a lens that does not include the feedback of other people. And so you might have somebody in a room who's even gone to therapy before, and nothing has ever been, quote, uncovered. They're like, I'm totally fine like that. I've seen a therapist, dah, dah, dah, dah. But then when you start to talk about the patterns that are happening in the home or the relationship, it becomes more clear, oh, you know, I know you've been to therapy before, but to me, it sounds like there is a substance use issue. And, like, where are you getting help for this? Because we know that people under report when they're with the individual therapist. So couples therapy tends to be somewhere where you can't under report anymore. People are, I joke, they're telling on each other, but in a way that can be really, really helpful to getting the support that they need.
Another thing about referring out in couples therapy is that I noticed as a couples therapist that as soon as one person starts to be, like, pathologized a little bit more in the relationship, that's when I am like, okay, I need to refer this person or both people out. Because now the focus of couples therapy is no longer the relational dynamic. The focus has become, oh, you know, she grew up, she had this really traumatic upbringing, and that's why she's always yelling, because she is traumatized and has nothing to do with me. It's because she's traumatized. And all of a sudden, we're spend all this time talking about this person's trauma, which we talk about a lot in couples therapy, is an incredibly important thing, but it's taking the heat off of the other person as well. And so if we can refer out in those moments, then it allows that to become more of an equal playing field again, where we can say, yep, and she's working on that trauma outside of here, and we'll recognize when it comes up. But, like, where's your piece of this pie as well?
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Right. So back to kind of it's not who's right or who's wrong. It's looking at the dance and the relationship.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: So we know a lot about, like, social health and the importance of relationships. But I was curious if there's anything in particular that you thought would be a nice little nugget for us to think about in terms of our relationships with our significant other. And I imagine as a couples counselor, it's not always about marriage or, you know, there could be room for other types of relationships.
But, you know, is there anything that you might be kind of startling to us to think about in terms of how much this impacts our overall wellbeing, the health of our relationships?
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So when you're thinking about how the health of our relationships impacts our well being, it really trickles into every area of our life. Because as adults, when we have a primary relationship, whether that's a romantic partner, it could be like somebody's best friend, if that relationship starts to break down, we start to feel kind of inherently insecure in life. Because human beings are naturally collectivist. People who want to know that they have some sort of village. And in childhood, that village is our parents. And we know that if people's parents aren't there for them, it creates that type of relationship insecurity where, you know, you might feel anxious or withdrawn or whatever it is. But the same thing happens to grownups, too. They just find a new primary attachment figure that they can feel confident in and secure with. And so if our relationships aren't healthy, and if we feel alone in the world or criticized or whatever it is by our primary relationships, then we're going to feel inherently unsafe, which impacts us elsewhere. It makes it harder to feel confident in the rest of our life as well.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: That's fascinating. Yeah. Looking at it from that collectivist lens, like we need each other to survive. And when.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: You know, I know we talk a lot about that term codependent sometimes, and it's been used as a bad word for a while, and now we're kind of coming back around to that. You really can't help but have some level of codependence with someone that, that you rely on, that. That's kind of built into the nuts and bolts of a significant relationship. But kind of monitoring where, you know, where self starts to kind of become enmeshed in the system and, you know, how we hold each other accountable for our own actions and communicate.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. It's, you know, there's a spectrum. And so we can certainly be two codependent, but we can also be too individualistic. And I think it's important for all of us to learn where is the balance there? How do I still rely on others? How do I still act like a reliable person to others while also like, maintaining my sense of self, which is often a lot of what's being worked on in couples therapy.
It's where the conflict can come from.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: Right, right. Like finding that balance.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: And I imagine it often looks different for each person in terms of what they see as the sweet spot.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: So let's imagine that, you know, a therapist here is listening, who is used to seeing individuals, and you there are. I want to ask a little bit about, like, signs that you need to kind of look for that might indicate that a referral to couples counseling is really important.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: Oh, I like this question, because I wish more individual therapists refer to couples therapy.
Okay, so a few things. One, I think when the person is coming in, complaining about their relationship again and again and again and trying to work on their relationship and individual therapy, and I see individuals, too, doesn't mean you don't see them anymore. But I think that at a certain point, it's really important if you're working with the individual to recognize you are only going to be able to go so far with that person in the relational dynamic. Now, there are some cases where somebody comes in, they talk about their relationship, and that individual work is helpful because you can see some movement. Like, maybe they're recognizing themselves within the dynamic. Like, I struggle with setting boundaries or something like that. And you can help them with that. Maybe they're trying to decide how they want to express some something to somebody. But when they're coming into your office and they're talking a lot about the actions of the other person, they're talking a lot about dynamics, and it doesn't feel like it's making any movement. I think it's really important to say, I can only do so much with you here with your relationship without, you know, this another person seeing what these dynamics actually are and being honest with your client and saying, I have only so much capability to know what's really going on. And this isn't that you doubt your client, but it's letting them know that really in a system. And I say this to my individuals all the time, you know, like, you're in this system with your partner and without me understanding what's your partner's perspective, or, like, how do they see? You're telling me how you respond to them, but I don't really know how you respond to them. And I think a third party could help the two of you to identify what's going on. And I'm happy to communicate with them, to be your advocate, to express what you've been working on, all of those types of things, But I think that's really important.
Another time that I think couples therapy can be helpful is almost like a backdoor approach to figuring out what's going on with your client when you can't figure it out. And so what I mean by that is maybe you feel like they're in a relationship. They're coming in, and they tell you that their partner has said to them, you know, you sleep too much, da, da, da. And they're saying to you, I don't know why they always complain, blah, blah, blah. But you're starting to wonder, is there something to this? Like, they're not reporting to me that they're depressed. They're not reporting to me that they're drinking X amount every single night. And yet there's some signs here that tell me that other people are reporting that to them. And I really would like them to go to a couples therapist to see if more of the story can become clear. And, of course, I would share that with them in an honest way. I wouldn't be trying to manipulate, but I would probably say something like, it sounds like, you know, your partner has a very different perspective on what's going on with you. And I'm starting to wonder, am I missing something here? I always say that to people. I'm starting to wonder, am I missing something here? Because I only have you in the room. And I'm curious, would you be open to seeing someone with your partner so that this third party can kind of mesh together what you're both saying and really figure out, like, what's going on for you, what's going on for your partner, and give me that information?
[00:17:36] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
You know, I was thinking a little bit earlier, there was a episode with Eric Strom, who is a lawyer and therapist, and he was discussing around the ethics of referrals, and when you start to recognize that something is outside of your scope. Right. And I feel like we're starting to talk about that now, right now, where, you know, you're an individual therapist, someone is coming in, you're recognizing your limitations within that individual therapy setting. And, you know, he describes it like, you know, you kind of come to this area where you've taken them where as far as you can right now, and now you have to take them to this bridge. Right? And the bridge helps them get over to the other area where, you know, the couples therapist that can help get them to that place.
And I like that image. And I also think about the stigma that's associated with the bridge or people being like, oh, no, I don't want to go there. That means something.
So, you know, oftentimes, I think in the past, couples counseling has been seen as like, oh, it's really a sign that a relationship is in trouble or headed down the wrong path and like, you know, it's a sure sign of divorce. And I know that stigma still exists for people. So I was curious if you have any advice to therapists or anyone who might be referring on how to kind of guide them and lead them to that bridge in a way that like, makes them feel safe taking that step and reduces stigma and, you know, helps kind of get them on board. Because the way we talk about things is so important sometimes in other people buying in, taking on that challenge.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: I think that there's a few things. One is when you're presenting it, you're presenting it as kind of like a thread of hope, right? So it's not, I don't know what, not that anybody would say this, that's listening, but you don't want to give that vibe of I don't know what to do anymore. And like, I don't know, your last ditch effort should be couples therapy. And I think sometimes it can be expressed that way as well. Before you make that decision, maybe you should try couples therapy. It's a last ditch effort or whatever, but instead you're looking at it as a thread hope, not even necessarily hope that the relationship will improve because maybe that's not what that person wants. Maybe they want to decide if they want to get divorced, but hope that they're going to get a better sense of things or that they're going to get a deeper understanding. And so you can present it as, this is what I've been noticing. This is where I think I can help you still. So you can still give that hope. You know, here's the areas I think we're doing really good work with, you know, figuring out how to express yourself. I think we've been doing really good work with identifying how you feel. And that's where I feel confident in helping you. Here's where I feel less confident. I feel less confident in understanding truly what the dynamic is. And I really take your relationship seriously and my role in that seriously. And I don't want to be giving feedback that could damage something that I'm not seeing fully. And a couples therapist can see, see that pattern more fully. And because they can see that, they can give me and you a different type of feedback about the relationship that's going to inform our work in a more powerful way. So that's a little bit hopeful, right? Like, this is extra information. It's going to help us to really see what's going on. And I'm also Being honest with you, which is very powerful for a client.
I think the next piece of it that's really important is talking to the client about how they feel. Feel about that. So after presenting it, saying, what do you think about my suggestion? You know, what comes up for you? And if they say it feels great, explore that. Oh, okay. Like, what feels great about that?
Well, I've been wondering if it was a good idea, but I wasn't sure. And I don't know if I can get them to go, but I would really like them to. And then you just talk about that with them. Okay, what are some ideas? How do you think we could get them in the room? How do you want to express this? They might say, I don't like the idea.
They're not going to work with me. It's going to be a horrible experience. Couples therapy, as soon as we go in there, it's going to bring up problems that we didn't have before.
Just talking about that, letting them express their fears. You don't need to dive in and say, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what it does. But saying what would come up? What do you think? What is your worst case scenario? Somebody would say, what? And then what would happen?
How would you advocate for yourself if that happened? Like, let's talk about how you want to present yourself in couples therapy. And so I really just like to give people the door to express how they're feeling, to express their doubts and their fears, and then to explore with them, do you have solutions or ideas for how to navigate those doubts? And lastly, I never want to pressure anybody. So if they're like, nope, I'm not there yet, fine, okay, well, I do want to put it out there. We can keep working on X, Y and Z. And at some point, I really strongly believe that without an understanding of the dynamic, I'm not sure I could be missing something. And I don't want to miss anything. And I want to be honest about that.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I love that because it does. It takes a lot of time to process this stuff. Right. And I think sometimes we get caught in a. Well, I brought it up and it wasn't received, so I'm going to back off now. Or I don't want to come across as pushy, but it's often in the way in which we deliver it. And sometimes people actually need that space to make the suggestion or briefly mention it and then kind of circle back to say, hey, you know, I just want to circle to understand. Like, what was that? Like for you? And what did that bring up without, you know, hammering in, like, you gotta make this, and, you know, kind of having a technique where you're kind of making it seem like if you don't, bad things will happen, you know, but you. You are giving space to, like, explore and. And reinforce that. Like, you do think that this is important.
Because I. I think sometimes as a therapist, when we are feeling stuck as well, we can kind of accidentally collude in this belief of, like, nothing is working and, like, maybe it's us, right? Like, maybe, maybe it's me and my skill set, as opposed to recognizing, like, we're not meant to do everything and that we have a community of therapists around us doing work that we can do together and be more effective. Which actually kind of leads me to the question about collaboration. And I've wondered this in my own practice as well. There are different therapists who have different amounts in which they tend to collaborate. But what would you suggest. What would you suggest an individual therapist do in terms of approaching. If they make a referral, approaching a therapist for dialogue, how often might they be checking in? And granted, I know this is very nuanced based on the situation and how kind of intense the conflict may be or how it's showing up in the therapy space.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So the first thing I was going to say is it's so nuanced because there might be somebody you refer where, honestly, you never collaborate.
If I'm just going to be honest, where it is kind of, you know, there doesn't. It doesn't feel like you have any information that the therapist absolutely has to know in order to, like, get this right. And the other therapist is like, thanks for the referral. I appreciate it. And you do have each other's information, but you might just not need it. I would say that that is the exception to the rule that more often than not, it's helpful. And it's helpful for a few reasons. On the end of the couples therapist, it's so helpful for us to hear what you yourself have heard and seen, because often we're not hearing the.
Almost never are we hearing the expansiveness of what you've discussed. And sometimes what you discussed might help to solidify whatever our hypothesis is. And sometimes it might actually throw a wrench in it where we're like, wow, that's so interesting, because that is not what they're presenting at all. Or that's not how they, you know, they're telling you that they're very passive, but when they're in couples therapy, they're aggressive. And I'm kind of surprised to hear that there's this difference. And then the two of you can kind of navigate, like, where do we go with this? You're telling me this information from this person, you know intimately for a year, and it's so different from what I'm seeing. Like, what do you think would be helpful for me as the couples therapist to explore? And then on the end of the individual therapist, and like I said, I work with individuals as well. What's always been helpful to me is to hear those types of things that change the narrative I've been given. I really appreciate when a couple's therapist calls and says, hey, I know you're working with, you know, Liz, whoever it is, and here's what I'm seeing.
You know, Liz keeps threatening divorce and every single session, and whenever their partner tries to problem solve, stomps out of the room. And then I'm like, wow, when I work with Liz, Liz tells me that, like, they're the only one giving affection, and da, da, da. What do you think that's about? It gives me opportunities to then ask Liz new questions. I have opportunities to be like, okay, I know something. Hey, how's couples therapy going? And not that I would throw the couples therapist under the bus. I actually, that's one thing really caution you as an individual therapist. Sometimes it can be an easy crutch to talk about something difficult by saying, the couples therapist told me that you were yelling in session.
And that just almost ruins couples therapy, because then the person's like, well, you know, I don't like that. The couple's therapist made me. What does that mean? But being able to use that information with your own skills to get new information. So, you know, oh, this person's always screaming, and, you know, they curse at their partner and blah, blah, blah. And now you can start to ask, what's it like when you get angry? Do you. Do you ever curse? Or, like, tell me about what happened in couples therapy last week. How did it go? You kind of know where to dig. And so I think that that information sharing can just be so powerful.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's super helpful, and I'm so glad we're talking about this, because, you know, especially after the pandemic, right, There's a lot of. There are a lot of couples out there that are struggling, and this is becoming more and more common, I think, for people to accept it. But stigmas take a long time to die, and they can kind of lodge themselves even in our brains as therapists in terms of what will they, what will they like, Interpret this as if I suggest this so, so important. And, you know, I've also, one of the goals of this podcast is to look at kind of identifying the unknown unknowns, like the things that we don't even know that we don't know as therapists so that we can make effective referrals and then also learning just enough to be not dangerous. And when I say that, I know the term is usually just enough to be dangerous, but actually, I think we're. When we don't know a lot that, like, when we don't know the resources available, that's when it's dangerous, because that's when we kind of send a message of, I'm at the end of my scope and I don't know what to tell you. And then that's when people start to feel like there's lack of hope. So if you had suggestions, either your own resources, books, websites, as well as, like, potential others for individual therapists to kind of bulk up a little bit of knowledge around the work of couples counseling, not for the purpose of, like becoming a couples counselor, but more for the purpose of creating a nice guide to that bridge across into couples couples counseling land. What would you suggest to us?
[00:29:31] Speaker B: So I have a few suggestions. But very quickly, before I give those, I wanted to comment on one thing that you said which I think is really important about being, quote, dangerous.
And, like, knowing just enough so that you're not dangerous is really important. And the way that this plays out in couples therapy that I didn't mention, but I would, if I don't mention it, that would be, like, so silly, is that unfortunately, individual therapists that are very well meaning often damage relationships significantly. And the way that they do this is that like you said, when they get out of their depth, they might not feel confident. Well, you said something along these lines, but they might not feel confident enough to refer out. They feel like they have to be all knowing and all of that. And so what they end up doing is they end up thinking that they can diagnose relational problems to their individual, and they end up maligning their partner. Now, sometimes there's very clear abuse where you do have to align with your client and say, like, no, this person's hitting you. This isn't okay, or they've threatened your children or whatever more often than not. What I actually see, though, is that couples or individual therapists are saying things to their clients that once they are out there, once it's out of the toothpaste container. The toothpaste can't be put back in. And so I end up getting couples where one partner has been told for a year by their individual therapist, your partner sounds like a narcissist, your partner sounds unhinged, your partner is abusing you. They're mean, they're cruel, they're never going to change, they have an avoidant. And then I meet them and I'm like, these things are not true about your partner. Like, they can be self serving sometimes they have poor communication skills. And it becomes very difficult as the couple's therapist in those moments to in any way change the narrative that has been built in the individual by their trusted therapist for a year. And if you try to push back on that narrative, there's almost a collapse in the therapy. And so something so important is that when you recognize that you have an urge to start diagnosing the partner, please refer them to couples therapy first, because you could do damage that cannot be undone.
And I just think that that's so important for me to say because I've seen it and it's so sad. And the individual therapist didn't mean anything. They meant to be supportive and loving, but it really will harm a family. And so they need to be able to get into that room to see the full dynamic.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: Thank you for stopping on that point. Absolutely. And it's so easy in individuals counseling to really start to feel protective over your client and you know, like, and then kind of lose sight that, like, not that you're excusing the behaviors of someone yelling or whatnot, but that like, maybe you aren't getting the full picture of everything that happened together and what led to that. And our imaginations will fill in the blanks, as we know.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: And then we want to protect and we want to, we want to make sure that like we love them because we see them for who they are, you know, and all of their vulnerability. And it's a normal reaction. But I think as a therapist, it's really important to recognize this is coming from my desire to like protect this person from discomfort. And that's not necessarily helpful in therapy because it might be limiting possibilities. So one thing I just wanted to say, but if you want to know more about couples counseling, I think that like, you know, anything you can research around systems. So it doesn't mean that you have to become a couples therapist, but reading books like read Hold Me Tight, read John Gottman's book, Read My Book if you want to just read as much as you can about relational work and systems so that you can begin to identify, oh, this is actually like a relational thing. Maybe I should send this to somebody that does that.
I think that even if you're only doing individual counseling, it still doesn't hurt to take some sort of training so that you have some language. So learning about something. Imago Gottman Therapy EFT RLT Their initial trainings tend to be short. Right. You could take them in a few hours, get some CEUs. But I think that that just also helps to broaden the perspective of the way we describe relationships. People are going to describe critical behavior, yelling, stomping, withdrawal, all that. And if you can start to. With your individuals, see it in those terms, and you might, instead of saying, wow, that person is emotionally neglecting you, it sounds like you shouldn't be with them. Instead, you might think this sounds like a pursuer withdrawal pattern. I wonder what's really happening here. How can I help get underneath that? And. Yeah, so anything you take is going to help you to become a little bit more knowledgeable about what you're seeing in terms of relationships.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. And I know some of those styles of therapy are so different, so it's wonderful to be able to, like, share a little bit of, here's what you can expect. And this is what they really focus on, on this. And this is what it looks like, which. Which I know really breaks down the stigma because I do think a lot of people think of couples counseling as a referee sitting across from them, telling them who's right and who's wrong and, like, driving in feelings of shame. And it couldn't be further from the truth.
[00:34:59] Speaker B: Yeah, it's usually not that at all. And if it is, and if you feel that way, then you should, you know, find another couples counselor that's going to do more dynamic work, more about really understanding both people and helping them to communicate things in a new way.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is so funny, though, I have to say, because you happen to be wearing black and white stripes like a ref right now, and we're talking about how it's totally nuts.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: I am a referee sometimes, to be honest. Sometimes I am a referee. Right.
Stop. Stop it. No more yelling.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't hear the whistle, so I'm pretty sure that's just a side part of what you do.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: It's really funny. I was in a. During the pandemic, there was, like, a training on how to, like, shift couples therapy online, and the person said that because they can no longer physically be there to be like, all right, like, let's go. You need to step out of the room for a second or whatever. That what they started to do, they, like, figured out all these little tricks, and one of the things they started to do was like put their phone flashlight on and flash it at the screen because they would be, like, jolted out of their argument.
[00:36:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta figure out new ways to adapt.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: Yes. Figure out ways to adapt to get them to be jolted out of it. Cause it is harder when you're not in the room with.
[00:36:24] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That's funny. All right, well, thank you so much, Liz. This was really helpful. And again, you know, elizabethearnshaw.com check out, learn more about what she's doing. Several practices, all in the Philadelphia region. Jen, and just super wonderful to be with you. And thanks for sharing your expertise with us today.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Bye.
