Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Art of the Referral Podcast where we explore the nuances of mental health referrals to better serve our patients and our communities.
I'm your host, Anna O'Brien, a practicing licensed professional counselor and co founder of Be well Private Practice Communities and theravera Care Connection Technologies. I'm passionate about creating a stronger professional community that works together to reduce provider burnout, increase continuity of care, and ultimately improve the lives of people living with mental health challenges. Each week we dive into a different specialty or supportive tool, bringing you expert interviews, practical advice and inspiring stories to help you master the art and ethics of referrals. Join us as we navigate the complexities of patient care, enhance our professional skills and build a more connected health conscious community. Let's get started.
Welcome to the Art of the Referral Podcast. Today our topic is Navigating a New Frontier, a guide to Psychedelic Assisted Therapy. Referrals with Christopher Brown, licensed Clinical Social worker.
If you're like me, you've probably heard of psychedelic assisted therapy, read a few articles and maybe even know someone who has tried it. But it feels kind of like the Wild west when it comes to this form of treatment. Information is emerging seemingly every day and it's difficult sometimes to decipher what all this new information means and what resources are the most credible. So I'm very grateful to have Chris sharing his expertise.
Chris is a psychotherapist and as I mentioned, licensed clinical social worker in private practice and he owns a private practice specializing in EMDR and psychedelic assisted harm reduction and integrated therapy. With a foundation of eight years as a trauma therapist. Chris is a certified as an EMDR therapist and consultant by EMDR International association or what you may know as mdria.
He's trained by MAPS in Psychedelic Assisted Therapy and is on an international working group for psychedelic assisted emdr. In addition to volunteering and consulting with military veteran groups in psychedelic therapy space, Chris is the creator of Therapist Integration, a newsletter and consultation group for therapists exploring adding psychedelic harm reduction and integration therapy into their practice. Welcome Chris.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Thank you. Happy to be here.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Excited to chat about this.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm really curious if you can share a little bit about what, what got you into this line of work and why are you so passionate about it?
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so I guess initially what got me into the overall work as a mental health therapist was, I guess like many my own journey with mental health.
I mean, I was 22 years old and got out of the military. I was in the Marine Corps, went on 3D combat deployments and came home with PTSD, mild TBI, depression, anxiety, panic attacks, substance abuse, like all that.
And I spent a good year and a half, two years in pretty intensive individual and group therapy benefiting from EMDR back then as a client.
And somewhere along the way decided to use my GI Bill to pursue education toward becoming a therapist.
So fast forward a couple years.
You know, I was working in nonprofit while going to grad school, and when I graduated, I was able to get hired on at the va. So I spent seven years or so at the va and you know, really early in that first year, I pursued the EMDR training and I did emdr primarily serving combat veterans, military, sexual trauma survivors, grieving family members. That was kind of our program's main focus area. So a lot of PTSD stuff.
And I think it was around Covid because it was a virtual training that I took. I had the opportunity to take the MAPS training with the Bronx VA and a collaboration they were doing with MAPS and I think is the Sinai School of Medicine.
And that really opened up my eyes to the research.
And, you know, we got to see live video of dosing sessions with the mdma.
And seeing the breakthroughs in that training kind of validated some of the things I had been. I had heard from a couple of clients over the years who, one of them actually participated in a MDMA assisted therapy trial. Others, you know, were pursuing psychedelic journeys with other nonprofits like the Herbic Hearts Project that was sending veterans overseas to pursue psychedelic experiences.
And being an EMDR provider, you know, I'm really used to follow up sessions after an EMDR session to kind of check how are things integrating now, how are they storing memories now, how is it affecting them now? And being able to gauge progress and movement in, you know, a positive direction and in having these conversations with these clients who had gone and pursued these psychedelic experiences on their own.
I was pretty shocked to be hearing the same kind of stories and, you know, seeing the same kind of positive movement with them and their healing process, as I would have expected after, you know, maybe half a dozen EMDR sessions. And so that, like, really caught my attention. I was like, well, I can't ignore this. This is pretty promising. And then after going through that training, it really solidified it for me, the reality that there's really something to these plant medicines and these psychedelic experiences that make the brain more able to heal and work through really difficult things.
So that was, I guess, the arc of my process.
It was a combination of hearing from clients, seeing the research, and going through the training that really set that in stone for me.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: Fascinating. So you've really had a lived experience of experiencing what it's like to have trauma and work through it as well as your experience being a provider. When you use the acronym. Oh, I'm sorry. I was just curious. When you use the acronym maps, M A P S, could you share with us what that stands for?
[00:07:30] Speaker B: Yes, that's the Multidisciplinary association for Psychedelic Studies. I believe they're the ones that have led the MDMA assisted therapy trials.
They were, they renamed, Rebranded shortly after they submitted the phase three FDA approved study to the fda. Now they're known as lycos. So there's like, it's kind of, I guess, bureaucratic. There's a couple entities. Lycos, there was maps, Public Benefit Corporation. MAPS is still kind of like the catch all for all of that, at least in my mind.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: Okay, great. So I wanted to just slow down and ask that because there are so many acronyms in this space. So it's nice to know what to look for and what that means.
[00:08:28] Speaker B: Yep, yep.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: But you were, you were getting ready to say something. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I just wanted to add, you know, having had that lived experience as a client with emdr, something that was really important to me was having some lived experience with, with psychedelic treatment before I decided, you know, whether or not that's something I was going to do to support clients. And so I pursued some like a round of ketamine assisted therapy sessions.
And that was a really like eye opening experience for me, you know, going into an altered state of consciousness that I had never experienced before and being able to kind of see the ups and the downs that that might entail and how to make sense of that sort of perceived reality in those, in those windows of altered states of consciousness and kind of trying to imagine whether or not that's something that would fit within the model that I use with clients with emdr, because I consider myself an EMDR therapist first and foremost. And one of the things that I love so much about what the research is showing with psychedelic therapies is the window of neuroplasticity that these medicines create for the, in the brain.
And you know, some of the research shows up to a month at least.
I think I've read some cases where they suspect it might even last longer than a month, where the brain is more, more malleable. It's, it's easier for the brain to create new pathways, new patterns in that window after the Drug has worn off and people are back to a regular state of consciousness, the brain is still able to be, you know, shaped and formed and rewired in a more efficient way.
And so when you pair that window with any therapy, but in my opinion, EMDR is one of the better therapies that would help leverage that.
That's where a lot of the magic can happen. And so as I pursued my own experience, I was kind of trying to decide do I want to be involved in the actual dosing session with clients or given the nature of what I do really well, would it make more sense to just support clients before and after as they might pursue these experiences independently?
And you know, I did a lot of research around ethics and, you know, what would this mean if I were to do this in my own private practice?
And that's the model that I landed on that I feel comfortable with for now.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: That's really interesting. So it's not so much just the session itself, it's the session kind of sets the person up. Research is showing that the session sets the person up to be able to kind of integrate newer or different ways of thinking so that the therapy after the session, that month following is so important.
Okay, so it's not like this, you know, session and you're cured, but more like a shift in the brain that primes you for excellent work. And therapy related to that.
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah, and I mean, that's not to say that really effective therapy can happen during a dosing session. You know, these, these all, the most if not all of the research trials that are being done that are looking at this as a therapy, they're using the three phase psychedelic assisted therapy model.
And so PAT is the acronym three phase. PAT would be phase one is the preparation. So these are the sessions before the dosing.
Phase two would be the experiential, which is, you know, the dosing session. And then phase three would be the, what they call integration.
And typically the integration sessions are the most like, prevalent in, even in the research trials. You know, because I was trained with MAPS, I'm familiar with their protocol.
There's three preparation sessions, a dosing session and then three integration sessions. Dosing, three, integration. Dosing, three, integration. And so there's two to three sessions with the actual medicine and you know, 15 or more therapy sessions.
So there's a lot of just therapy happening that's leading to these really positive outcomes. And you know, so when you pair the two, it can be really advantageous.
And given that, you know, at least in the United States, as Far as I know, in all 50 states, ketamine is in a different schedule for, you know, controlled substances. And there are, their ketamine clinics are all over the country.
And this is kind of the, for the time being, the quickest, easiest way for people to start experiencing what this psychedelic therapy stuff is all about.
And unfortunately, some of these ketamine clinics aren't really prioritizing phases one or three. They're just, they're just providing phase two.
And so being a therapist that's aware of how things are working in a lot of spaces and knowing that clients are reading the research, hearing from friends, wanting to pursue these therapies anyway, you know, the pHRI, the psychedelic harm reduction and integration approach would say, you know, I'm going to be willing to have these ethical conversations with clients, supporting them with, you know, assessing risk and making sure that this is something that might even make sense for them and then figuring out how to incorporate whatever their plan to do, whatever they're planning to pursue independently, how do we incorporate that into their treatment plan to help them continue working toward their treatment goals with us?
So that's, that's kind of the mindset that I have.
And I'm in Washington state, so we're right next to Oregon, where it's now legal for.
They have a whole system that they've created for psilocybin service centers, they call it.
And that model really is about that Phase two. Also, it's very limited in the preparation and the integration support that they offer clients. The requirement for preparation and integration is very low, if not non existent. And so therapists in this region especially need to know how to have these conversations with clients who could easily just head down to Oregon, have an experience like that that could be life changing in really positive ways or really troublesome ways.
How could we support them before and after?
So that's kind of the dilemma that therapists that I talk to in my state, in my consult group, we talk about this all the time. And I think it's a glimpse of what's probably going to become the norm across the country as these regulations continue to unfold. Because right now there's active legislation in several states, whether it's psilocybin or psychedelics more generally. A lot of state legislatures are starting to have these conversations. So I think it's important as therapists to be prepared for that.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That does seem like the direction that it's moving. And we've definitely seen that even just with the legalization of recreational marijuana.
So that does Make a lot of sense. And that's a great point. So we are likely having people join us referring providers from all over the nation and maybe the world. So every state is going to have kind of different protocol. But what I am interested in learning a little bit is if kind of we collect the states together and say like, well, what are some of the types of psychedelic treatment out there that are recognized? I'm curious about that. And also like how they may be administered because I know that some, some have different ways of being administered and where they're administered and whatnot. So loaded question. Answer at your own pace, what makes sense.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: I just want to make sure I am getting that the question is around specific types of drugs or administration methods.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Yeah, a bit of both. So you know, there's ketamine and are there different ways of administering ketamine? You mentioned psilocybin, things like that, like, you know, kind of those things.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So I guess to think of this in categories there are FDA approved trials which are really limited in terms of access.
But there are trials going for psilocybin, MDMA, I believe LSD, I want to say 5 MeO, DMT as well. But I'm not, I'm not actively tracking all of the ongoing studies. I just look for stuff once it comes out.
I know with ketamine there's, you know, people can receive ketamine through like a blood infusion, kind of like an iv.
They have lozenges, nasal sprays and these different kinds of. There's ketamine and esketamine and I couldn't really explain the difference in any scientific terms. That's not my area of expertise. Yeah, psilocybin, you know, we had somebody from Oregon who's really involved in what's going on down there, explain some of this. Just earlier this week they, all of these service centers, the mushroom has to go through a lab to test how much psilocybin is in the mushroom before they're administered. And so they measure it differently than like the whole weight of the mushroom because I apparently some have more psilocybin in them than others. And so they want to have a really clear understanding of how much is the person receiving of the psychoactive component.
But from what I gather it's still the mushroom that's being consumed. I believe in at least the Compass Pathways trial, I think that it's more of they've taken the psychoactive substance out of the mushroom and it's administered in more of a medicine format. So that would look different.
I guess the places or the ways, the opportunities in which these are received, like I said, could be through a research trial. It's kind of limited. Could be through ketamine, like a. In. In place ketamine clinic that you go to a brick and mortar building. There are, There are companies that exist, like Journey Clinical or Skylight, that basically it's like kind of a telehealth platform that pairs clients with a therapist who can provide the therapy and a psychiatrist who can prescribe the ketamine medicine.
And you know that. So the client can do the ketamine from, I guess, their home and the therapist is supporting them along the way.
So, you know, there's different platforms that people I suppose, are considering and something that I'm including in this part of the way I talk about this in a training I'm giving later this year just to make sure therapists are aware there are also psychedelic churches that exist. And so this is outside of the medical model. This is very much more of like a spiritual religious model.
But there are, there's been federal legislation in the, in our nation's history that has allowed certain churches to use psychedelic as religious sacraments.
And some people are joining these churches in order to pursue these experiences.
And I, and I think it's just important that therapists know that, like, that's also part of this climate that we're talking about in terms of different ways people might access these experiences.
And there are certainly, like potential risk factors and ethical gray areas all over the place. Like you said in the intro, still kind of the wild West.
But another real common way that people are experiencing these psychedelic journeys is they're working with, whether it's a nonprofit or a company that facilitates these bigger retreats in countries overseas where jurisdiction legalities are either decriminalized or completely legal.
And people will sign up and go on a retreat like that overseas and then come home and debrief and start the integration work with their therapist.
So those are, I guess, the, the primary worries that I'm aware of, that people are tapping into this.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, with that, with it being so new, people are finding kind of creative ways to implement it. But it sounds like the guidance or the research or the clinical side might be lagging and at least which it's so challenging. I think this happens a lot in our field at different points in history. And it can take things that have a, like, positive impact or the potential for positive impact and kind of color it in a way. So, you know, that's kind of Leads me into the question of, you know, if, if a provider wants to think about this or if they have, if you are seeing someone and they're expressing interest in doing this, you know, you're mentioning like, if they're really interested, if there's a will, there's a way, there are different ways to do it. Right. So, you know, if they are interested and you're trying to provide some guidance with limited kind of training or information, we're hoping that this podcast is helpful.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: The therapist or the client?
[00:24:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, the therapist. Like if the, if, if the therapist is, you know, if the client is asking for a referral, you know, or saying they're interested, what can the therapist, or even if we have some referring providers who might be doctor's offices or whatnot that want, that want to know more, what are some of the red flags that we as providers need to look for regarding like shady or unethical practices and also like what are the things to look for in a reputable provider?
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so I would say look for providers that are actively, whether it's through their marketing or through conversations you have with them, are actively aware of and can articulate their role in that three phase PAT model.
So for an example, if a ketamine clinic says that they're doing ketamine assisted psychotherapy, but you look on their website or you call them to reach out and learn more and you find out that really all they're doing is providing space for an experience with ketamine, but they don't have any therapists on staff or they're not actually doing that.
Preparation and integration work doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't send a client there, but if that becomes part of the conversation, there should be some sense of caution around expectations.
You know, you may not want to expect to get the full psychedelic assisted therapy experience if you're going to go there. But if you're a therapist who has some insight and wherewithal around preparation and integration, that might not be as necessary because you can be that person to support the client if they go and pursue an experience at a place like that.
Something that I've, that I've talked to clients about as sort of, I guess a way to test the ethical considerations of a facilitator or a clinic would be to ask what is, what is their, what is their policy? How do they think about or talk about the use of therapeutic touch?
And this is a really interesting kind of hot topic in the psychedelic assisted therapy world because there, you know, this is psychedelic assisted Therapy has been utilized underground for decades and has been researched pre 1950s and 60s and then resurgence in the last couple decades.
There's a. There's a consensus in some groups that when somebody's in an altered state of consciousness and is feeling like they need a hand on their shoulder or just to hold someone's hand for a little bit, to help them through a difficult experience that they're experiencing in that moment.
There's, there's reasons why therapeutic touch might be helpful, but it's a piece of the informed consent before the dosing session has happened. And it's discussed in detail, like, what is the client comfortable with? What are they uncomfortable with?
And it's understood that if the client changes their mind during their altered state of consciousness. Well, we're not going to go with that. We're going to go with what was discussed during this informed consent piece. And so, you know, informed consent, therapeutic use of touch, these are some things that can be helpful ways to just gauge how proficient and in depth does this provider think about these sort of things.
Because if they aren't, then maybe they're not going to be the most aware and supportive person when you're in that really vulnerable state.
So that can be a helpful way to kind of test somebody's capacity and the way that they think about things. If it's something that they just completely dismiss and they're like, I'll hug you, I'll touch you, whatever, or no, I'm not going to even go there without any consideration as to potential merits as to why, you know, that's a good way to just determine whether or not they might be a good fit or an ethical, like violator, essentially.
Another thing that I hear a lot because it is kind of the wild west, and particularly, I guess, in the underground world.
There's there, you know, psychedelics can activate the ego and folks who have narcissistic tendencies, it can get amplified and there becomes this like, cult, like, sort of narcissistic.
I am, I am right. No matter what, you're going to do what I say. And it's like a very unhealthy, toxic.
A lot of toxic potential can exist, especially when people are going into like the underground space where there's not a whole lot of eyes on and interaction with professionals.
So, like a lot of heavy caution should be administered when people are considering something like that.
And you know, when I, when I was looking at the ethics around this, it's something that's kind of counterintuitive because as therapists we always want to consult with other providers that are seeing clients, but it's actually against the law for us to consult with an underground guide because of our licensing laws. Like, we just, we can't. We can't collaborate with somebody who is providing illegal substances.
And so that becomes a tricky area to navigate. And that's why so much extra time is spent in preparation with clients to make sure they understand, like, laws and legalities and ethics and clinical considerations and risks, and really trying to encourage the stuff that has a little bit higher level of like, quality assurance or clinical requirements or considerations.
You know, sending people to a licensed service center in Oregon as, like a soft referral, like, hey, this would be probably a safer option than trying to procure some mushrooms downtown, right? Like, don't do that.
Going to a ketamine clinic with a licensed provider, probably going to be more safe and ethical and appropriate for what your goals are. You know, in my world, in the veteran world, there's. There's a few nonprofits that do a really good job at vetting quality and, you know, clinical capacity of the folks they partner with overseas. And so it feels a little. A little more okay to say, hey, why don't you reach out to this nonprofit and see what they suggest?
You know, so having those sort of resources at your fingertips can be a really helpful way to mitigate risk and harm. But ultimately, like this harm reduction piece of phri, it comes from the substance abuse field. You know, being able to say, well, I'm not going to require abstinence. I'm not going to require. Somebody doesn't even consider doing this in order for me to help them. You know, we're going to talk about risks. We're going to talk about, you know, how we can really focus our conversation toward their bigger picture goals and see whether or not this even makes sense within that, because sometimes it doesn't.
You know, there are certain contraindications for folks that would say you just, you should never do that. It might be a really bad thing if you do. I mean, just briefly, some of the contraindications that are often cited on the. And this would be like referring out to a primary care physician, probably for the medical stuff. Obviously, if someone's pregnant, has a history of seizures, high blood pressure issues concerning the heart, like heart disease, heart failure, heart attacks, et cetera, you know, anything like that should be referred to a primary care physician. On the psychiatric side, if clients have a history of psychosis, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar 1, any active suicidal Ideation or untreated PTSD or dissociative disorders some folks would probably include in this personality disorders.
And untreated I think is a really operative word there because I'll just use PTSD as an example. You know, if somebody has not learned how to self soothe, how to emotionally regulate, how to manage their nervous system response, when things are kind of getting out of control, when, when a, when a drug like a mind or a, a conscious altering substance is coming into the system, there's a sense of like control being lost. And that can be a really strong trigger. And if you haven't learned how to manage those triggers, you know, go in with your breath, stay in the present moment, sit with your body.
That can be a very triggering experience and lead to a very six to eight hours. Right. Like it could be very difficult. And some of my emdr, psychedelic assisted EMDR colleagues in the UK have focused on using EMDR to support clients who have had a really challenging psychedelic experience because it's kind of like a trauma in itself.
So we would want to avoid that. And if this did come up, this might, an informed therapist might say, well you might not need to like rule it out, but let's just focus on supporting you with teaching you some tools, maybe bringing that self regulation skill set up a little bit and you could maybe reconsider in a few months.
So that, that's kind of how to think about it. And then the other one that I missed was certain antidepressants.
There's some literature that suggests that could become problematic.
I think serotonin toxicity is one of the main concerns there, but I think there's research going on to test that and make sure that that's valid. So I guess that's to be determined, but I still keep it on the list.
[00:36:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great to know. So what are some of the symptoms or diagnoses or reasons in which if whether it's not something that you're activating the referral for or someone is expressing interest in and you're, you know, and is wanting to know more, like what are some of the things that it really can support and help?
[00:36:24] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's going to sound weird to hear me say that right after I just gave some reasons why PTSD might not be the right fit. But a lot of the research has been around ptsd. In particular, the MDMA trials have focused pretty heavily on ptsd.
Psilocybin and ketamine have both been looked at for depression.
A lot of research around depression, ketamine I've seen a lot of really great outcomes lifting depression even to the point of suicidal ideation, helping reset somebody's internal experience with those kind of symptoms and create a lot more space for good therapy to happen to help prevent future relapse.
There are other trials looking at psychedelics to support substance abuse issues.
I've seen some really good outcomes in the John. I think it was John Hopkins research trials that we're looking at end of life issues.
There's a, one of the veteran groups, vets veterans exploring treatment solutions.
They have sent a lot of special operations veterans to ibogaine retreats and ibogaine seems to have a lot of promise for PTSD substance abuse. And they put out a study with Stanford. I think it was just a few months ago, it was early this year looking at outcomes for traumatic brain injury symptoms as well.
So there's a lot of potential applications for these medicines according to the research.
And I think the big dilemma, how can we be that middle ground right now? The balance between people seeing all these great outcomes with research not having like easy access all the time to these different options, wanting to pursue them however they can. Because I mean if you're suffering for any extended period of time, you're going to want to, you're going to want to find whatever might be able to help you.
And, and that's the case with so many of my clients that I end up seeing who are wanting support with this is like, you know, I've tried all the other things and yeah, they just aren't really doing what I, what I know I, I need. And so like they're, they're genuinely considering this sometimes is like their last option.
So yeah, being therapist, being able to like honor that and recognize that and do what we can to support that, I think it's going to become as important over the next 10 years as it would be to like be able to perform a suicide screening and provide suicide prevention and intervention skills with clients. Like we all have to go through those trainings and know how to do that. I think the same is going to be true for this within the, probably within the next five or 10 years. So yeah, we'll see if that ends up being true.
[00:39:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I can totally understand that prediction and that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean there is so much more use of EMDR and trauma based research and we're really like recognizing how much trauma plays a role. So it's only natural that we would look at other types of treatments that have shown promise with trauma. And if you are an EMDR therapist, you know, you're even more likely to run into people who've read articles about this as a form of treatment. So it's so powerful to like, even if you're not interested in engaging with it as a therapist, like know enough to talk about it, know enough about how to point someone in a direction that sets them up for success if that is something that they are interested in doing. So if a therapist wants to either just learn more like know enough about how to refer or is considering maybe like learning how to support someone either in that phase one, phase three, or maybe even phase one, two, three, can you share about some of the resources that you have personally or that you know of that could help a provider?
[00:41:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
So personally I have you mentioned it at the intro free newsletter that if folks sign up they'll get, you know, six, seven, eight, nine emails over the course of a few weeks with different, you know, articles, thoughts about this topic and things to consider if you're starting, you know, to explore incorporating this in your practice.
I also have a consultation group that meets weekly, bi weekly and every month we have a subject matter expert join to talk about, you know, a certain niche sort of focus area in this psychedelic assisted therapy world. And there's usually, you know, a short presentation and then some Q and A. So the therapist can, so that's another option in terms of what I could provide and folks can go to PeakPsychotherapy Co to find those options.
One of my favorite websites that has free resources and some paid trainings is psychedelic support.
And they also have a directory on there of therapists who have said like I either provide pat or I can have phri sort of support conversations with clients. There's a directory on there on psychedelic support for that too. But they have some really great like really easy to digest, really informative trainings and then there's like bigger trainings, vital ipi, the maps training. Some of these are like a hundred hours year long trainings. I don't necessarily believe those trainings would be a requirement if somebody's not going to be doing that phase two, sitting with somebody, they certainly would still be informative regardless. But I don't, I don't personally believe it would be, it's like a requirement if you're just doing the preparation and integration.
I do, I do believe that it would be helpful for therapists to just give themselves permission to have their own experience at some point if they're going to be having these conversations with clients. You Know, we learn in grad school. A lot of grad schools at least would say, like, if you're going to be a therapist, you should be in therapy. Like, know what it's like to be in the client seat. And I think that's definitely true with.
And, you know, any path you take, any rabbit hole you go down, you're going to become that much more aware and proficient at having these conversations.
It's my best answer.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, no, this is great, and this is obviously the tip of the iceberg, but so much more than most of us really know. And, you know, that's really the goal of what I'm trying to do here, is support a little bit more understanding about.
Take the things that are what I call, like, the unknown unknowns, the things that we don't even know that we don't know, and at least turn them into not known unknowns, or this is where I can go to learn more. So I really appreciate your time, but before we leave, I feel like I have to bring this up because it's, like, so all over the news right now. What are your reflections about some of the things that have been going on with the recent MDMA trial and the FDA and some of those things? Do you have any thoughts that you'd like to share with us or insight as an expert in the field?
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Yeah, so, I mean, it's disappointing that the FDA turned it down, especially after.
Oh, I mean, it's been over a decade or. Or more of research that's gone into showing, like, proving PTSD symptoms go down substantially and more. Way more than they would with traditional pharmaceuticals, like antidepressants. I think some of the critiques about the study design are probably valid. Uh, I remember when I went through the training wondering, like, is this gonna make it through?
But I think that the broader psychedelic research space is hopefully learning a lot from that and going to be tightening up their designs moving forward.
So I don't think it's a game changer. I think it's maybe a speed bump.
But looking at this more from the veteran world, A lot of these veteran advocacy groups were lobbying this last month or 2 in D.C. saying, like, we have 20, in some estimates, 22 suicides per day in the veteran community. And this is something that so many veterans were part of these trials and, like, benefited from firsthand and, like, has changed their lives. We don't care about the study design. We just want our friends to stop killing themselves.
And I think that there's a lot of, you know, really legitimate upset in these communities that are genuinely suffering and wanting access to these services now, you know, so it's, you know, it's kind of a touchy subject.
[00:46:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I know there are a lot of things.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: I'm hopeful that this is just a speed bump and it's just a matter of time until we're able to validate this and get the powers that be to.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, it sounds like it. From what I understood, like, it sounds like it did expose some issues around administration and safety protocol. Right. And that, you know, there are predators out there and that this, you know, sometimes that the vulnerable states that these folks can be in, like, they need to be extra protected. So, yeah, from the outside, I definitely understood. And especially with women, like how, you know, there's been. There's fears about safety and, you know, sometimes we're not taken as seriously. So I think, you know, I could. I heard a lot of arguments about how, like, it's good that they. They recognize that and they listen to, like, the suffering that had happened to some of the people in the trial. But I hear what you're saying in terms of, like, this is something that is so. Has so much potential for hope, and it's not. It's. It sounds like to put it down and walk away because of a faulty design in a trial or there needing to be more protocol around safety would be a missed opportunity to help a lot of people who are suffering. So.
Yeah.
[00:47:51] Speaker B: One last thought on that.
The case that I believe has been mentioned and that we're talking about, that caused harm. This was discussed during the training that I went through, and from what I recall, the individuals that caused that harm, at least one of them, if not both of them, were unlicensed therapists. And I think they, like, had a license before and then let it lapse. And in my view, it's a good example of why it's so important that licensed therapists are part of this work. Because we do. You know, there's always the bad apples, but we have some pretty strict ethical guidelines that we adhere to and need to follow that could. That could mitigate some of these. Absolutely.
[00:48:44] Speaker A: That's a great point.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: That's something I'm always trying to.
That's a drum I'm always beating when I'm talking to groups of therapists.
We need you in this space.
[00:48:54] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I can see that you're beating that drum through all the work that you do. And it's wonderful to know about the resources you offer to help therapists understand this work. And I will be adding some of the resources that you mentioned in our show notes, so feel free to look there for that information.
I really can't thank you enough for your time, Chris. I know I've been a fan of your work and following you on LinkedIn, I can tell how passionate and compassionate you are about this work and I appreciate what you're bringing to the field. So thank you so much for your time.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: Thank you. I appreciate being here. This has been great.
[00:49:34] Speaker A: Yeah, really appreciate it. All right, have a one. Yeah. Thanks. Have a good day.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: You too.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: Thank you for tuning in to the Art of the Referral Podcast. We hope you found today's episode insightful and valuable. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review to help us reach more providers and clinicians like you. Follow us on social media and visit our website for additional resources and updates on upcoming episodes. Until next time, keep mastering the art of Referrals and making a difference in patient care. Goodbye.
