Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Art of the Referral Podcast where we explore the nuances of mental health referrals to better serve our patients and our communities.
I'm your host, Anna o' Brien, a practicing licensed professional counselor and co founder of Be well Private Practice Communities and theravera Care Connection Technologies.
I am passionate about creating a stronger professional community that works together to reduce provider burnout, increase continuity of care, and ultimately improve the lives of people living with mental health challenges.
Each week we dive into a different specialty or supportive tool, bringing you expert interviews, practical advice and inspiring stories to help you master the art and ethics of referrals. Join us as we navigate the complexities of patient care, enhance our professional skills and build a more connected, health conscious community.
Let's get started.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Welcome. I'm really pleased to be here today and honored to be with Dr. Chloe Haas, who got her training at NYU and works with children and families specializing in high conflict divorce. This is a topic that you know, as a therapist we encounter no matter who we work with, and it can be really sticky for all parties involved, lots of stress in the situation, and it's so wonderful to be here with her to learn more about her expertise and her suggestions of things to consider when either accepting a referral or considering giving a referral regarding a situation in which high conflict divorce is at hand. Welcome Chloe. It's wonderful to see you here. I know we work in the private practice community, be well together and have always been so such a big fan of your work and I've loved seeing what you do.
[00:01:52] Speaker C: Thanks for having me, Anna. It's great to be here.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: So can you share a little bit just to get started about like how you got into this work and anything pertinent that we may need to know about your training?
[00:02:02] Speaker C: Sure. So during my training I did my doctoral degree in school and clinical child psychology at Yeshiva University, which is in the Bronx.
And so during my training I worked with a lot of families, you know, living in very low income situations. My internship was at Woodhull Medical center, which is a public hospital in Brooklyn, so I didn't see a whole lot of high conflict divorce there, but I did see a lot of families in tremendous amount of stress. And from there I worked in a school setting in a private school for children with learning disabilities. And I ended up deciding I wanted to focus a little more on evaluations.
So I started working at an agency called Bergen Family center, which is in Bergen County, New Jersey. And it was a job where I learned how to do custody evaluations. So I Worked there for about four years, and I got a lot of training in doing custody evaluations and working with families in high conflict situations. It was a center that accommodated. It was a service offer to all families in Bergen Family Court. So you can imagine, you know, pretty much ran the gamut in terms of socioeconomic status.
When I moved to Philadelphia, I decided to have that as part of my private practice. So my private practice, as is at Be well in Fort Washington, and I see families in therapy and for evaluations from family court. And many of the families I work with are in. Involved in some kind of family court litigation.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: So a lot of your referrals come from court. I'm wondering, are there situations where they might come outside of court from other therapists or other sources within the community?
[00:03:56] Speaker C: Yes. So many times the referrals I get come from co parenting therapists who are working with parents on co parenting. So this is after they've separated and they're working on how to make decisions, parenting decisions for their child. They could come from couples therapists who maybe have worked with the parents in the past, or other child therapists.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: Okay, and what are. What are some of the common things that maybe we can call them mistakes or naivetes that therapists have around the issue of working with high conflict families, or traps, perhaps even that we can fall into?
[00:04:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it. I think a big trap is understanding your role as you step into working with a family and a great deal of conflict. So one of the traps, so to speak, I think, is aligning too closely with one parent or the other. So oftentimes I would be seeing a child and their parents are involved in some sort of conflict and at times, like a family court issue.
So if you think about conflict on kind of like a spectrum, once you're getting to family court, so the parents are essentially saying, can't manage this conflict. We can't solve this conflict between the two of us. So we've got to bring in the court system to make decisions or help us make decisions that's, you know, on an extreme. So the parents are at this extreme end of conflict and coming to a therapist to help their child if we use the example of child therapy. And so I think that situation is really wrought for taking sides and the black and white thinking. That is always a thought trap that any of us can get into at any point. But I think especially when we're stepping in, in a helping role and we really want to advocate for the child and we may unintentionally have a bias to just see things more from the mom's perspective or the dad's perspective or either parent or caregiver's perspective, especially if we're spending the most time with one parent.
So sometimes in a very high, complex situation, one parent.
You know, there could be a whole variety of situations. Maybe you're dealing with both parents, but maybe you're dealing primarily with one, and the other one is just more on the outskirts. Whenever we spend more time with one person, we're just naturally going to see things more from their point of view. And we kind of have to, because we're working with them and they're paying for the therapy.
So I think that is a really common trap to just enter into the conflict. Because anytime you align with one party over the other party, which is the term we use in, like, the court system of parties, or just a person, when you're aligning more with one over the other, you're stepping into the conflict. Then you're a part of the conflict. You're a player in the conflict. And that's really tricky for the child because your. Our role as child therapist is really to treat the child, and it complicates things in their world if we then start to align with one of their parents and step into this comp.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And especially if the court gets involved. Right. Like, you literally are pulled into the complex. I have a funny story not related to divorce, but earlier in my career, I was. There was a situation with a client where there were some legal things outside of therapy that they were dealing with and they kind of were using. They. I got to post to. To discuss. Right. Like, kind of some. Some issues. And I.
It was totally different than I had ever experienced before. I'm lucky. I haven't had, like, run ins with the law. So I, like, really didn't know what to do. And I found. I mean, I. It's kind of hilarious to look back at how bad I was at it. Right? The. The lawyer would ask me questions, and I would go into therapist mode of, like, active listening. Like, you know, and the. The snog, the courts, or the stenographer they brought with them kept being like, oh, Anna, like, don't talk until it's like, your. Your turn. You know, and. But I just remember that session as well, of feeling so activated myself and this real, like, rescue fantasy to, like, wrap my arms around that client. You're right. Because I did see things from their point of view, and it's hard to Transition into a setting like court where there is like this. The goal is to have a verdict of like, what is right and what is wrong when our work is so nuanced and is like, about emotional health and helping people, like, see the shades of gray. So I'm just curious about like your advice to therapists that may be working. Like maybe they're working with a couple or a family or something is happening in which things start to escalate and you know, and we can feel it. And I know personally after that I was a bit traumatized. So whenever I would be with a client where it would seem like something legal might be happening in terms of like their employment or something that like I'm hearing about like a divorce or it becomes challenging. Right. Because we, I know, would notice my heart flutter a little bit about like, how do I document? What do I, you know, how do I make sure that I am doing the right thing here? What if XYZ happens? I know I'm asking a general question here, but I'm just curious like, what it brings up for you as I'm sharing about that that might be a common therapist experience.
[00:09:27] Speaker C: I think that's a really good point.
Part of deciding if you could take a referral like this is imagining how it's going to be for you to be exposed to a high complex situation. Yeah, for me, I've definitely experienced the same things that you're talking about, like becoming activated, kind of feeling like a tightness in my chest, especially when I'm kind of directly exposed to the conflict. And many times in my experience it comes in emails after a session, like getting a flood of a flurry of emails between the parents. Sometimes it's related to the treatment, oftentimes it's not. And it's kind of more about like peripheral issues with the child, like more co parenting issues. So something that has helped me in these situations is really kind of coming back to boundaries. So I can't control, of course, like how the parents are going to react. And I don't want to be too harsh or judgmental of the parents too. Like, it's very challenging for them to be in this kind of situation and to feel like, you know, the threat that you may lose time with your child or the threat of not having as much control as you would like. But from my perspective as a clinician, you know, I can't control how they're going to, to cope with the situation. Right. But I just try to kind of have like some degree of distance and know that like in my role, oftentimes I'm being asked to support the child in the midst of their conflict. And that in and of itself is pretty much the treatment goal, is to just be their support. So it's kind of a fine line because in child therapy we often do include parents and it's usually most success, in my view, when parents are included because of course, the child spends most of the time with their parents. But it's a, you have to a kind of nuanced, balanced situation when you have two parents who may say things very differently. And so if you're giving a suggestion, you know, you kind of have to be a few steps ahead in these situations and kind of anticipate how is this going to land? Is it going to land like I'm taking one parent's side over the other? Maybe it's safer and best for the child to maybe not include the parents as much or not give or give the suggestion with a caveat or with a, you know, kind of putting in, in the framework of a neutral, coming from a neutral place. So yeah, to answer your question, I really just try to take a step back and not get into the cycle of reacting because oftentimes that's what I see from the parents. Reacting, reacting, reacting without kind of like taking some time and seeing it from different perspectives.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. So when you're asked to do something like, let's go to like the. When the court asks something of you, what is involved in an evaluation, like, what does that look like? What are the steps in it and what are you providing at the end.
[00:12:30] Speaker C: Sure. So for evaluations that come from the court, oftentimes I'm doing psychological evaluations. So for example, a family or parents might be involved in a custody dispute through family court and usually one parent has a concern about the other. Maybe it's based on some concerning thing they said in a text message. Maybe it's based on concerning behavior. It really could. Anything could be concerning. Right. But some examples are like thoughts of harming oneself. Maybe one parent sent thoughts of harming themselves to like, if, you know, if, if you divorce me, I'm going to kill myself, that type of thing. Or it may be kind of more rooted in parenting. For example, maybe one parent disagrees with how the other parent is parenting and. Or could be substance abuse. That's another common one. So whatever the reason is the.
I get appointed by the court to do an evaluation and then it's a neutral, objective evaluation. I'm not hired by either side. It's really through The. The judge is appointing me, and then I evaluate both parents and do psychological evaluations of them, but in the context of their dispute. So it's not a custody evaluation. A custody evaluation is when the child or children are directly involved in the evaluation process. So these are, you know, can include the. They include things like psychosocial histories, talking to other people involved, like the parents, therapists, psychiatrists, any other professionals they might work with, like coaches, maybe some family or friends or colleagues. And then I review any documentation they submit, which oftentimes is text messages. Or our Family wizard is the app that parents and family court litigation tend to use. And I review everything. I have interviews with the parents and do some psychological testing with them. And then I put everything together in a report with a summary of what I think is happening and some recommendations.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: I'm thinking about if someone is working with an individual parent. Right. And they're noticing, like, an escalation.
I'm curious about, like, advice that you might give and even, like, some common things that you see that happen.
And I'm gonna call them mistakes. But I really wanna clarify, like, this is not shaming. Therapists, I really, truly believe, like, we are all trying to do the best by the people that we serve. We get into this work to help. Right. But naturally, along the way, something will get tugged inside of us, like. Right. It might be from our own childhood encounter transference. And we may. It may pull us in a direction where we are thinking that we're helping, but maybe actually kind of not helping or making it more complex. I'm curious, like, do you have any guidance for. For people, whether they're working with a child or with a family member, and. And they're starting to see that that conflict is coming up. And perhaps it hasn't come to the point where the courts have gotten involved, but that you're kind of recognizing that there might be a point in which. Like an inflection point where a referral might be necessary, or there's information that they should be considering as they make the next steps forward in treatment.
[00:15:49] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. And I do have some thoughts and suggestions for therapists. I have been very lucky to have been a therapist in these kinds of situations myself. But also in my role as an evaluator, I get to interview so many therapists because when I'm doing an evaluation, I always interview that person's therapist. And one thing I hear all the time from therapists I'm interviewing and evaluations is, you know, I don't think I'm going to really be that helpful, but I'll share if you want me to. And they're the most helpful people in the evaluation. So, like, therapists are in, you know, you have so much like sort of power and authority, authority on mental health and what's going on with your client, but also just, you know, we make such a big impact, we don't realize it. We always kind of downplay what we can offer. So I just want to share that. But the first thing I would mention is, in terms of your role, I would just be really clear about, you know, your role in this family or with this individual. I have seen situations where therapists are making recommendations for the child or the family or the individual that are really outside of what they can actually ethically recommend. So, for example, if you're working with a child, let's say, and you have, you're working mainly with one parent, and they raise safety concerns about parent B. Let's say you're working with parent A and they have safety concerns about parent B. I've seen child therapists recommend that parent A just stop communicating with parent B or not allow the child to see parent B. So that's not a recommendation a therapist can make. That is a custody recommendation that the judge has to make. So that would be something you definitely want to avoid. Just being clear about what is your role with this family or individual? Another one is, in terms of documentation, you definitely want to. I know it sounds kind of obvious, but you do want to document your work and be clear about getting any release forms you need. So sometimes when I'm doing my evaluation, some therapists choose not to speak to me, even though I have release forms signed by both parents. You can't really not talk to an evaluator. In this case, if the parents have signed release forms, it's actually the client who controls the medical record under hipaa. So you don't, as a therapist, own your record. If the client gives consent for it to be released, you do need to release it. So that's something that I've learned in my work as an evaluator that I don't think I really knew before. And I think it's something kind of like a misconception that maybe some therapists have that we own our record. Some other ones to consider are, um, sometimes therapists don't have diagnoses for their patients. And I'm not saying that you necessarily need to. But as an evaluator, when I interview therapists, often they're describing a lot of symptoms that do fit into a diagnosis, but they don't give a diagnosis. And I think some therapists might not want to give a diagnosis because the client is involved in court and maybe they think that's going to look bad or something like that. But I think it's always best to just be honest. If you're describing a lot of symptoms of adhd, for example, and then you don't give a diagnosis, it doesn't really reflect so well.
And the way I see this can be an issue is if you're treating someone, this is kind of another pitfall and you don't collaborate with the other mental health professionals involved. So oftentimes I'm, I, you know, as I said, I have the opportunity to interview a lot of mental health professionals. There might be a therapist, there might be a coach, and there might be also a psychiatrist. And no one has spoken to each other that that can be an issue because you have three kind of siloed professionals treating all different things, or maybe they're all treating the same thing. But if one calls it ADHD and one calls it nothing, like no mental health diagnosis, you know, is that really valuable to the patient? Like, shouldn't we all sort of try our best to be somewhat on the same page if possible? And if not, maybe that's a time to refer them to someone else who is going to align with the other professionals.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: It's really interesting.
Yeah. So kind of brings a different lens to like looking at supporting someone that like, sometimes the diagnoses or being honest about what you're seeing actually can be helpful in certain situations as to avoid confusion or arguing back and forth about the meaning of something. So for therapists that have concerns about allegiance or alliance that the evaluator, a court evaluator, could have, because sometimes this happens in other situations where an evaluation is paid for by one side or maybe biased. Right. What might you say to people who are having this concern, their therapists that are having this concern in terms of, like, how they're sharing their information and maybe are perceiving how it might be interpreted?
[00:21:07] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. Oftentimes I'll be doing an evaluation and one side is paying more than the other or one side is paying for all of the evaluation. Ideally, I mean, I can only speak for myself, but ideally an evaluator should be completely neutral. Not completely, we all have biases.
But should be doing their best to maintain neutrality and provide an objective evaluation. I've had therapists reach out to me in the past Saying, can you do an evaluation so parent A can build a case against parent B? I say parent no, I can't do that. Evaluate. I can do a neutral and objective evaluation. So regardless of who is paying or who I should say, yeah, regardless of who is paying, the evaluator should be neutral. Like, they should be doing their best to stick to what is being reported to them. And I think along those lines also, a tip for therapists is kind of like you don't. You only know what you know. Like, you only know what your client is telling you. And so to be careful about, because your client said. Described their ex maybe as a narcissistic abuser. Okay, that's what they said. That's what they reported.
Did you meet the ex? Did you assess them? You know, just to be careful. If you're ever in the situation where you're being interviewed by an evaluator or just in general for your practice, like to just keep that in mind. Like, we only know what our clients are telling us from their perspective, and of course we align with them. That's what part of our work and our relationship building. But also to just keep in mind there is a different side and it exists. It's out there. Just to keep that in mind.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. So, like, really, like taking a step back and being objective and thinking about, like, factually, what do I know versus, like, you know, we certainly have intuition and gut feelings and they play a role in therapy. But in, certainly in these situations, it sounds like you get more, you know, you're taken more seriously. If you can kind of show that you've thought through the difference between your feelings and what you know to be true and what you've like, personally evaluated within your own sessions with a client?
[00:23:20] Speaker C: It sounds like, yeah, I think we all kind of have like an intuition in a sense of what's going on. And I think that's very valuable to us. But at the same time, I think you just. Just being open to that, there might be another perspective. Yeah, I think that helps.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: So let's say if someone is working with a child, right. Or they perhaps because of the court or whatever, you know, it's understood that, like, we're going to get this child into therapy. Can you share a little bit about what a therapist should be considering in terms of setting up expectations during intake and also kind of how maybe to navigate any kind of involvement from legal systems that could. Could come to be like, whether it's child protective services or whatever. Those are kind of two questions in one. So feel Free to parse it apart?
[00:24:12] Speaker C: Sure, yeah, that's a great question. So if you're taking on a child therapy case and the parents are involved in the court system, I think you just, you really want to be realistic about what you can accomplish. So think about like these parents are at the extreme end of conflict. You know, maybe it's more mild conflict, but if there's court involvement, there's a fair amount of conflict. Right. So they're having a lot of issues with trust, problem solving in the best interest of the child, and probably communication.
So realistically, what can you accomplish? I'm not saying you can't accomplish anything, but I would set expectations in the intake and I just find that it works best within this population to try to just be direct.
I think when we're in a high conflict situation, sometimes we want to tiptoe around things and I think that's a natural inclination. But actually I've found that these families do better with being direct and just setting very clear boundaries because it helps them, it helps you know what to expect, helps you be clear about what you can and cannot do, and it helps them know kind of what they're getting into. So in terms of, for example, like communication, like how are you going to deal with emails? Because that is a very frequent issue. I find there being a lot of emails and who cc'd on the emails. And are you going to speak to parents individually or are they both going to be present? Those are questions I would ask and I would want to kind of set that framework from the beginning. And also if there are other professionals, I always want to talk to them and I always say that I can't. I would just set a firm line personally that I can't really work with them unless they're going to give me access to the other professionals. Maybe not a parent's individual therapist, I think they have a little more privacy on that. But if there is a co parenting therapist who's working with parents directly on parenting, I would want to speak to them.
If there's a guardian ad litem, which is sort of like an attorney for the child, I would definitely need consent to speak to them. And for me that would just be like a hard line because it kind of comes back to, I was saying before, if you're going to work with a child, the more professionals involved in high conflict situations, the better for you as a therapist because you have more support, you have more, you can have more influence. And support is really important when you're in these high conflict situations.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I'm also just thinking about how it models like boundaries for those people who are the family members that are in high conflict.
Because when you're activated like that, you can't help but in some ways like kind of be scheming in your mind of like, you know, when you're really afraid that your child's going to get taken away, you don't. You're not always in the rational place and you're kind of imagining scenarios in your head and sometimes not being very boundaried about how you're reacting or responding to situations because you're in fight or flight. So I can see how like, like not playing into the, like the, the he said she said game and really like staying focused on the goal of the well being of the child is of service to the therapist because it, I'm sorry, is of service to the family and the parents because it's modeling like we can have conflict and we can still take a deep breath and focus on making mindful decisions that are centered around the end goal of the well being of our child.
[00:27:42] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. And I think one thing I've learned is just, just to emphasize like I've had to be much, much more direct, I'll just say much more direct in the, in this kind of therapeutic role than in any other I've ever had. Which is not something that came naturally to me in the beginning. But I think if, I think because as you're saying that the parents may be in a fight or flight mode, like as a therapist you really want to hold them and kind of be the anchor and with that I think just come being very firm with the boundaries if they can't hold them like you're going to hold them for them.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Haas, one of the things I've been thinking about, you know, as we're talking is just a theme that I've really been interested in exploring, which is the nuance of the ethics of referrals and recognizing some different things that are at play that make the, this complex, which is often like your own scope of training, like recognizing when you're outside of scope. But then of course, like we can always bump up our understanding by taking CES in certain situations. And then there's times where it's like, whoa, this is way outside my scope and I'll never be able to learn the information I need to support this person in the next session. Right. And then there's also like our own understanding of our personal limitations. Right. So ideally Obviously, we're always seeking consultation when we're seeking seeing counter transference and we're getting activated. But there are some situations where something is just very tender and raw to us and it's, it's like it just. No matter how much consultation we get, it's just not a great fit for us clinically because we just keep seeing ourselves get pulled out of the role of being, you know, centered as a therapist and kind of going back into our past. You know, especially, I would imagine this is true for therapists that might have been, you know, a child of a high conflict divorce that, like, you know, it's easy to get activated, especially if this is not something that you're dealing with every day, you know, and you have a lot of experience. So my question for you is, like, do you have suggestions or like, you know, things that you encourage therapists to notice in terms of when to recognize that it might be time for a referral?
[00:29:43] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. I think the biggest thing in my view is really taking sides. I mean, I think it's just so easy to do, you know, when we're in. When we're exposed to a conflict, it just can become very black and white and we can think we know more than we really do know. Because again, like, I just come back to like, this, this idea of being objective. Like, and it is like a fine line, like you're trying to be objective, but also you do have your clinical sense and your clinical intuitions. I wouldn't want to diminish that. But sometimes we're exposed to this. This conflict is between two people. So it's very polarized and can kind of just become this very black and white thing. Like, someone has to win, someone has to be right.
And oftentimes there's pieces of truth to both.
And oftentimes, like parent A has some real strengths, even though they may have some real weaknesses too. Parent B has some real strengths. And it's just kind of, you know, helping both to kind of go more to their strengths and their challenges. So I think anytime you're working with a family or a child and you just find yourself aligning more with one over the other, you know, you may be missing things in the one you're aligning with that they really need to work on. Like the things that the other parent is having a hard time with, the parent you're aligning with. I hope that made sense. But I think that is the biggest pitfall when you're working with a child, because if they're going to sense that you are aligned with one parent. Like there's just no way we can hide that. And how does that help them?
You know, that it can't. Like we can't really be effective as their therapist if we step into the conflict. And I've had, I had a child say to me, like, do you like my mom?
With the implication that she kind of knew that there was something going on between me and the mom. And you know, she was really young, she was five. So kids are so, they're so aware, especially kids.
Oftentimes kids in the high conflict situations are hyper aware of the nuance in their, in like social facial expressions, tones of voice, all those things because they have been exposed to so much conflict in their lives.
So that would be my biggest suggestion. Like once you find yourself taking a side, which is very hard not to do, but once it becomes kind of reaching the level of like getting sort of entrenched or lacking like flexibility, then I would consider maybe referring the family to a different therapist.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
Thank you so much.
So one last question because it's approaching the deadline for license renewal in Pennsylvania for a lot of licenses and I know a lot of people are doing, you know, brushing up on their child abuse training.
If you are a therapist and you and someone discloses whether you're a child therapist or you're working with other parents and someone discloses information or you have reason to suspect that there might be child abuse abuse going on, obviously we know like we need to report that right away to Pennsylvania. It's Childline. But are there other steps that you encourage the therapist to do if there is a team involved in terms of like how they should be communicating what they heard or kind of alerting the, the team as a whole so that it doesn't get lost?
[00:33:11] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it depends because with child reports to Childline, you can maintain your confidentiality as a reporter. So Childline won't disclose who made the.
And in my training I was always taught to if you're going to make a referral to. It was ACS in New York, but Childline, you know, you should always try to tell the parent that you're making the referral. So they're not surprised.
However, now, as I've specialized in high conflict families, working with high conflict families, I've been advised that maybe that's not always the best course because it is so wrought for this black and white thinking and taking sides.
Even though we know we can make a report and still, because we have to, because it's the law, and still maintain. Oftentimes we can still maintain our therapeutic relationship that might not be possible for the parents. And so I would say it depends, because you, you, you know, you'd have to consider the pros and cons of identifying yourself as the reporter.
I think once it becomes a case, then you can and should consult with all the other professionals involved. But I think it depends if you want to reveal your identity as a reporter or not. If you think it's in the best interest of the family.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Absolutely.
Well, one of the first steps I know for therapists, when they're perhaps feeling outside of scope or wondering if they should make a referral, is to seek consultation.
If the therapist is listening and they have the situation currently or in the future, what would you advise them? Like, what type of therapist might you advise them to seek consultation with or other types of professionals to seek consultations with if they're having kind of doubts or concerns around situations that they're encountering that, that, you know, are perhaps outside of their scope or their comfort level in this. In this realm?
[00:35:10] Speaker C: Definitely.
Yeah. I always. I'm definitely still learning. There's a lot to learn, and there's always kind of these unique situations that pop up.
So I, I do a lot of consultation myself. I have a mentor who I work with for my evaluations, who sometimes reads my evaluations or helps me with different questions. I have one of the.
I'm trying to think of the word the board. The person who was on the board of Ethics Committee in Pennsylvania is someone who I regularly will call if I have questions, and then I attend consultation groups. So I would say if anyone in your preexisting circles, like, you know, has an area of expertise in this, it's probably a good place to start. Of course, your professional organizations, like, for me, it's apa.
You know, usually you can consult, I think, with. With them or with their lawyer or you'll. Your malpractice insurance. That's what I was trying to think of.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. There's so much.
[00:36:17] Speaker C: There's so many. So many different ones. Yeah, I mean, those are the ones that come to mind. But I think that's a great idea. There's so much that we're all still learning even as we specialize. And so I always. I'm very quick to ask for help and because there's people who know much more than I do.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great advice. I think that also helps prevent us from falling in that trap of feeling like we have to know everything or respond immediately to an email with an answer is like taking a breath and seeking guidance from someone who might be more seasoned in the the thank you so much Dr. Chloe Haas. This has been so informative and something that I think all touches all of our professional careers in some way. So if people want to find out more about you and the work that you do, where do you suggest they they reach you?
[00:37:05] Speaker C: The best place to reach me is my Website so it's montcotherapy.com I will.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: Make sure that I link that in the show notes and again, appreciate your time and thank you for all you do for our field.
[00:37:18] Speaker C: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:37:21] Speaker A: Thank you for tuning in to the Art of the Referral Podcast. We hope you found today's episode insightful and valuable.
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